World of Warcraft: Current Year

Korillo · Apr 25, 2022

The suggestion that FF14 raids are "harder" is hilarious to me because every raid is literally scripted with every ability coming out at the exact same time each fight. The only difficult part is finding 7 other people who aren't retarded. Although if weakauras existed in FF14, you wouldn't even have to worry about finding good players.

It is also funny seeing someone shit on M+ when they don't even know what a +15 is. People can be rightfully toxic if some idiot comes in a bombs their key on a dungeon that's been out for a year and a half. You can join an M0 or +2 and ask a question/screw up, most players won't give you a hard time. The problem is joining keys higher than that without any knowledge, and this is why the +6 - +10 key range is seen as the most toxic gameplay. There's no excuse for not watching a guide or running the dungeon on a low level to learn it.

FF14 pugs avoid a lot of this toxicity by letting the player set up rules for joining the pug, where someone literally can't join it unless they meet the requirements. If you try queuing up for a decent endsinger group at this point right now in FF14, they will require that you have the duty complete. Or they will list a group as practice and clearly state that they are learning, so you can go in an expect to wipe for a bit and no one will be upset about it. Same for savage pugs. Savage pugs even clearly state their strategy in the party finder, and if you don't know it or screw up they'll kick you out. Although you are right, they are nicer. Sometimes they ask you politely to leave first.

Most people who invite players to a key set similar requirements but still have to manually filter out the players. So if some idiot invites another idiot with a low score/no experience, they are equally to blame imo.

My main issue with M+ is they don't change it up enough each tier. You are even forced to try and get the same fucking loot from the same fucking dungeons you got last tier, because they can't even bother mixing up the loot. Hey, you know that item that took you 30 runs last tier? Go do it again! Yay...

Mist · Apr 25, 2022

Korillo said:
My main issue with M+ is they don't change it up enough each tier. You are even forced to try and get the same fucking loot from the same fucking dungeons you got last tier, because they can't even bother mixing up the loot. Hey, you know that item that took you 30 runs last tier? Go do it again! Yay...

They are supposedly fixing this in the expac, only half (4) of the dungeons will be in M+ each season and the other 4 will be older expac dungeons with retuned loot. And then the next season it'll be the other half of the dungeons in M+ and then 4 different old dungeons. But uh, too little too late.

Chris · Apr 25, 2022

Korillo said:
The suggestion that FF14 raids are "harder" is hilarious to me because every raid is literally scripted with every ability coming out at the exact same time each fight. The only difficult part is finding 7 other people who aren't retarded. Although if weakauras existed in FF14, you wouldn't even have to worry about finding good players.

It is also funny seeing someone shit on M+ when they don't even know what a +15 is. People can be rightfully toxic if some idiot comes in a bombs their key on a dungeon that's been out for a year and a half. You can join an M0 or +2 and ask a question/screw up, most players won't give you a hard time. The problem is joining keys higher than that without any knowledge, and this is why the +6 - +10 key range is seen as the most toxic gameplay. There's no excuse for not watching a guide or running the dungeon on a low level to learn it.

FF14 pugs avoid a lot of this toxicity by letting the player set up rules for joining the pug, where someone literally can't join it unless they meet the requirements. If you try queuing up for a decent endsinger group at this point right now in FF14, they will require that you have the duty complete. Or they will list a group as practice and clearly state that they are learning, so you can go in an expect to wipe for a bit and no one will be upset about it. Same for savage pugs. Savage pugs even clearly state their strategy in the party finder, and if you don't know it or screw up they'll kick you out. Although you are right, they are nicer. Sometimes they ask you politely to leave first.

Most people who invite players to a key set similar requirements but still have to manually filter out the players. So if some idiot invites another idiot with a low score/no experience, they are equally to blame imo.

My main issue with M+ is they don't change it up enough each tier. You are even forced to try and get the same fucking loot from the same fucking dungeons you got last tier, because they can't even bother mixing up the loot. Hey, you know that item that took you 30 runs last tier? Go do it again! Yay...

Endsinger Extreme is an amazing raid boss, I loved those practice groups.

Anyway I knew what +15 meant if he meant a +15 key, is that the cut off point for the seasonly acheivement? I was just confused why he wanted to see them on my armory when I already said that I noped out at a few +1 attempts (at launch). These Putin drones don't actually read my posts, they cherrypick something and rage.

You are not 100% wrong about FF14 fights being a little bit more scripted but that's one of the cheats they use to enable higher difficulty, along with more combat res access and zero trash/corpse runs. I don't think WoW cooldown based AI is that far off FF14 script based AI though.

Bringing it back to WoW, corpse runs, trash and timers are artificial difficulty. It worked when epics were rare and those roadblocks created scarcity, but today it's just pointless. Get rid of them and the toxicity improves and new/returning players can actually get into succeeding in the harder content and give you more people to play with.

Actually I cleared MC and BWL in vanilla on Horde and Alliance, in Classic it just wasn't worth my time doing it all again, I had a handful of times to explain how Deep Breath on Onyxia worked, with 10-20 minutes between attempts then trash needed reclearing. It sucked.

Warmuth · Apr 25, 2022

Mist said:
They are supposedly fixing this in the expac, only half (4) of the dungeons will be in M+ each season and the other 4 will be older expac dungeons with retuned loot. And then the next season it'll be the other half of the dungeons in M+ and then 4 different old dungeons. But uh, too little too late.

It’s not going to help. Whether it’s a new dungeon or not isn’t going to change the feeling loathing people have towards blizzard and the game when they finally overcome the rng after running any dungeon, new or old, and being disappointed that many times.

Daidraco · Apr 25, 2022

Chris said:
Endsinger Extreme is an amazing raid boss, I loved those practice groups.

Anyway I knew what +15 meant if he meant a +15 key, is that the cut off point for the seasonly acheivement? I was just confused why he wanted to see them on my armory when I already said that I noped out at a few +1 attempts (at launch). These Putin drones don't actually read my posts, they cherrypick something and rage.

You are not 100% wrong about FF14 fights being a little bit more scripted but that's one of the cheats they use to enable higher difficulty, along with more combat res access and zero trash/corpse runs. I don't think WoW cooldown based AI is that far off FF14 script based AI though.

Bringing it back to WoW, corpse runs, trash and timers are artificial difficulty. It worked when epics were rare and those roadblocks created scarcity, but today it's just pointless. Get rid of them and the toxicity improves and new/returning players can actually get into succeeding in the harder content and give you more people to play with.

Actually I cleared MC and BWL in vanilla on Horde and Alliance, in Classic it just wasn't worth my time doing it all again, I had a handful of times to explain how Deep Breath on Onyxia worked, with 10-20 minutes between attempts then trash needed reclearing. It sucked.

ffs, you've got to be just trolling at this point.

Mist said:
They are supposedly fixing this in the expac, only half (4) of the dungeons will be in M+ each season and the other 4 will be older expac dungeons with retuned loot. And then the next season it'll be the other half of the dungeons in M+ and then 4 different old dungeons. But uh, too little too late.

An immediate concern I had when I saw that was Trinkets. I can almost expect one particular expansion is going to have some god tier trinket and everyone is going to try to get it. Then the season or w/e will change and that trinket will be out of reach for a lot of players and now they wont be able to parse as high until that set of dungeons comes back around. Hyperbolic example, but the point still stands.

Mist · Apr 25, 2022

Mist said:
But uh, too little too late.

Warmuth said:
It’s not going to help.

Thanks for agreeing with me?

Mist · Apr 25, 2022

Daidraco said:
An immediate concern I had when I saw that was Trinkets. I can almost expect one particular expansion is going to have some god tier trinket and everyone is going to try to get it. Then the season or w/e will change and that trinket will be out of reach for a lot of players and now they wont be able to parse as high until that set of dungeons comes back around. Hyperbolic example, but the point still stands.

Yes, for that next whole season the trinket meta and how that affects overall class balance will be different, that's the point.

Warmuth · Apr 25, 2022

Daidraco said:
ffs, you've got to be just trolling at this point.

An immediate concern I had when I saw that was Trinkets. I can almost expect one particular expansion is going to have some god tier trinket and everyone is going to try to get it. Then the season or w/e will change and that trinket will be out of reach for a lot of players and now they wont be able to parse as high until that set of dungeons comes back around. Hyperbolic example, but the point still stands.

Trinkets are the only reason any of it is being considered. All other gear is normalized and no one gives a shit how long it’ll take to get a crit/haste chest instead of the vers/mastery one that just dropped.

Daidraco · Apr 25, 2022

Mist said:
Yes, for that next whole season the trinket meta and how that affects overall class balance will be different, that's the point.

Warmuth said:
Trinkets are the only reason any of it is being considered. All other gear is normalized and no one gives a shit how long it’ll take to get a crit/haste chest instead of the vers/mastery one that just dropped.

I get what you both are saying, but Im not talking about the armor - There are just trinkets that people kept through multiple tiers "in the past" because they were THAT GOOD. So even if the game is into the next season, the current crop of trinkets just dont stack up against the last seasons trinket because it compliments that particular class really well over the next seasons.

Lunis · Apr 25, 2022

Korillo said:
The suggestion that FF14 raids are "harder" is hilarious to me because every raid is literally scripted with every ability coming out at the exact same time each fight. The only difficult part is finding 7 other people who aren't retarded. Although if weakauras existed in FF14, you wouldn't even have to worry about finding good players.

I agree completely with FFXIV. 100% telegraphed mechanics aren't hard, they're just a retard check. I think vanilla WoW did it best with very minor, or sometimes none at all, animations for things like cleave. It was only through experience with a fight that you knew exactly where to stand for maximizing dps w/o taking too much damage. Fuck the red cones/rectangles/circles.

Cybsled · Apr 25, 2022

Trying to argue that choreography isn’t hard to a weak argument. The hardest part of any raid fight is execution. Having your raid fucked up because of bad RNG isn’t good design.

That’s like saying if you were judging a dance routine, you’d give more points to the person who kept dancing after an audience member threw an apple at their head vs the person who executed an extremely hard routine with no errors.

Yes, the randomness is a difficult thing to account for, bu it only feels good if you deal with it in the sense you didn’t wipe due to random BS. If you fail due to RNG, then you blame the game more often than not.

If you remove the random shit, then failure is squarely on the shoulders of the players.

Pyros · Apr 25, 2022

Lunis said:
I agree completely with FFXIV. 100% telegraphed mechanics aren't hard, they're just a retard check. I think vanilla WoW did it best with very minor, or sometimes none at all, animations for things like cleave. It was only through experience with a fight that you knew exactly where to stand for maximizing dps w/o taking too much damage. Fuck the red cones/rectangles/circles.

Funny enough, in savage raids the trends has been to remove telegraphs on a lot of things. In normal you can see them to figure out what type of ability it is, then on savage you're just expected to remember that. There's still plenty of telegraphs though just not everything is, but a fair bit rely on looking at the boss movements or the name of the skills they're using.

And while all the fights are scripted, who gets targetted by what and has to do which mechanics, or which mechanic comes out first is still randomized on a lot of things.

Ultimately it's a waste to try to argue about which raid is harder or whatever, just discarding XIV's difficulty entirely because the boss uses the same timeline every fight is a bit of a weird argument considering how few people can reliably remember something like that for 10mins while also playing their classes. I get not liking it, but saying it's easy is like saying playing piano is easy because all you have to do is remember which key to press with the right rythm.

Zindan · Apr 25, 2022

Just remove addons from WoW and raid difficulty will increase.

Masakari · Apr 25, 2022

Zindan said:
Just remove addons from WoW and raid difficulty will increase.

100%

Cybsled · Apr 25, 2022

pretty much. Addons and encounter development have been an arms race for many many years.

Korillo · Apr 25, 2022

Addons are definitely the reason WoW was made more difficult. I didn't mean to make FF14 sound stupid easy, savage can definitely be a challenge and you will have to slowly progress through each fight, but it is significantly easier then mythic wow. 1) because you only need to play with 8 players opposed to 20 in mythic wow, and 2) weakauras don't exist. If weakauras existed, every savage fight would require 0 thought as a big weakaura would just tell you where to stand at all times.

Even if you just consider the halondrus fight on mythic, for example. You have multiple pairs of players having to balance bombs on a 10 second timer for the entire duration of the fight, while still having to complete the rest of the fight. There is nothing in ff14 that really compares to that kind of difficulty.

I don't see how you could get rid of weakauras though. One of the reasons WoW feels good to play is that a good player can really stand out. Making good use of your procs, trinkets, cooldowns & any tier/expac related power makes a huge difference, and there's no way to manage all those buffs/procs without weakauras. FF14 doesn't really have that, at best you can coordinate your groupwide buffs but every job is pretty straight forward and you don't have things like trinkets or tier sets to take advantage of.

Kyougou · Apr 25, 2022

Korillo said:
I didn't mean to make FF14 sound stupid easy

But you did say that all you needed was " 7 other people who aren't retarded".

One might imagine that if all it takes is not being retarded that its probably "stupid easy".
Or at least barely above retarded easy? Maybe stupid easy is below above retarded easy?
I don't keep up.

Pyros · Apr 25, 2022

To be fair, the statement isn't entirely untrue. Even bad players usually eventually clear savage because the difficulty isn't that high, and you can to an extent carry someone who's playing poorly once you get geared enough. And eventually even a pretty bad player learns the fight enough through repetition that they beat it(that's where the set timeline becomes key in getting worse players to clear and makes it easier over time, if you repeat the same thing over and over again enough times you'll learn regardless of your skill). That said it's also worth mentioning that savage isn't even really what you'd compare to mythic raids. Ultimates would be closer, and ultimates are a different beast entirely since they're a single very long fight like once a year and those actually require more than just non retards. Savage is something you can clear in pubs somewhat easily, while I don't think people actually pub mythic(maybe?).

Anyway that's another shitty derail but I guess the news kinda died down on the new expansion, they didn't have that much to show yet? Did they talk about the new class at all? I saw the ugly dragons race but don't think I've seen a mention about Invokers, although I didn't really look into it much.

Korillo · Apr 25, 2022

Kyougou said:
But you did say that all you needed was " 7 other people who aren't retarded".

One might imagine that if all it takes is not being retarded that its probably "stupid easy".
Or at least barely above retarded easy? Maybe stupid easy is below above retarded easy?
I don't keep up.

Idk, I find it stupid easy since it is so scripted. You might fail a few times seeing it but once you see it, there's really no excuse for fucking it up. So ya, if you can find 7 other people and tell them "go there" and they do it you'll win.

Chris · Apr 25, 2022

Korillo said:
Idk, I find it stupid easy since it is so scripted. You might fail a few times seeing it but once you see it, there's really no excuse for fucking it up. So ya, if you can find 7 other people and tell them "go there" and they do it you'll win.

WoW fights are scipted, that's how mods can blare retard horns at people to move.

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World of Warcraft: Current Year

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Mist

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Chris

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Warmuth

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Masakari

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