WTF? Everquest... 3?

Conefed said:

I'd like to see near endless advancement and upgrades, skill ups, etc., but at the same time not require them by having the gameplay so solid that it's fun at every level and thus no real need to grind. Sometimes grinding can be cathartic, but it also doesn't have to be arbitrarily there.

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In the best games the journey is the destination.

limited map. having it open is too much of an advantage but doing so removes the game and replaces it with a map

Elidroth said:

Go sit in the corner and think about what you just wrote.

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If you like any of the following, you might like Vanguard:

• Falling through the world
• Getting your ass kicked by mobs 30 levels below you just because they have 3 stars by their name
• Playing a game with the worst combat animations in the industry
• Falling to your death if you chunk (zone) while on a flying mount
• Love brown.

Pharone said:

If you like any of the following, you might like Vanguard:

• Falling through the world
• Getting your ass kicked by mobs 30 levels below you just because they have 3 stars by their name
• Playing a game with the worst combat animations in the industry
• Falling to your death if you chunk (zone) while on a flying mount
• Love brown.

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But their music was really good. I liked hanging out in Tanvu

pharmakos said:

limited map and cartography as a tradeskill. want a good in-game map? better go to the tunnel and buy one from that one crazy dude who actually maxxed out Cartography instead of adventuring.

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I'd be fine with a vague minimap

Mick said:

I would like to see something new with the vanguard ip.

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The underlying architecture of Vanguard can never been fixed. It will always have issues.. Much much better to do a new game using an established MMO engine unless you're developing one on your own.

Elidroth said:

The underlying architecture of Vanguard can never been fixed. It will always have issues.. Much much better to do a new game using an established MMO engine unless you're developing one on your own.

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This ^ exactly.

We all knew it was a lost cause before it even released, but we wanted a real successor to EverQuest (not EverQuest 2 /sigh). Some of us, myself included, held on to the dream way too long.

At this point, I really don't see how any company is going to be able to compete in the MMORPG genre going forward unless there is a major mindset change in those that hold the purse strings.

FFXIV has set the bar much higher than any other MMORPG out there, and it has everything to do with two things: money and passion. Square is committed to spending the money to making a true triple A title, and the developers have actual passion for the work they are doing.

In the MMORPG industry today, you either find one or the other, but rarely both. Today you find one of two scenarios:

• Company throws a ton of money at the project, but wants it done as fast as possible with as many microtransactions thrown in as possible which puts making money first and making a great fun game to play last. The passion for developing a great game is lacking in this scenario.
• The developers have great passion for the game they are making, but the company doesn't have and/or does not want to release enough money to development to meet the goals.

With so many triple A MMORPGs over the past decade failing to make enough return on investment, we've seen more and more companies go the route of "make as much money as fast as possible" ala micro transactions.

Until big development companies regain confidence in a MMORPG being able to make good ROI on a 50-100 million dollar initial investment, it's going to be insanely hard for any new MMORPG to come out and compete with a game like FFXIV.

I'd say the only hope right now for the industry is for World of Warcraft Classic to be a MASSIVE success, and Blizzard somehow gets a clue, and starts making expansions specifically for their Classic version. If Blizzard can prove that the old way of making MMORPGs is profitable, the other companies will follow on their footsteps and inject hundreds of millions of dollars back in to the industry.

Does anyone outside of a small niche market give two shits about this IP anymore? People still cream in their pants at the release of WoW classic, but I think that nostalgia fades quickly outside of a (I also think relatively small) core audience.

I went back to EQ a couple of years ago and DID play some 600 hours (according to Steam) leveling a shaman with a warrior merc. It was entertaining to merc-solo old school content and clearly I got my money's worth. But that was it. I will never go back.

WoW drew me back in several years ago as well with the Raid Finder and the drop in raids - tons of fun and gear. But the complaints of the "1%" on welfare legendaries caused it all to be nerfed and I left that game for good after that as well.

Watching that video in the original post, I juts want to know when Lost Ark is coming to North America. Korea, Russia, China, Japan? Fuck off, do a Western release already.

Pharone said:

If you like any of the following, you might like Vanguard:

• Falling through the world
• Getting your ass kicked by mobs 30 levels below you just because they have 3 stars by their name
• Playing a game with the worst combat animations in the industry
• Falling to your death if you chunk (zone) while on a flying mount
• Love brown.

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Jesus, you missed /flush. Impossible to have a positive Vanguard-like experience without the benefits of /flush.

RoyalAssassin said:

Jesus, you missed /flush. Impossible to have a positive Vanguard-like experience without the benefits of /flush.

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LOL I had forgotten about flushing all the time.

Lol Vanguard - dark elves were legit racist elites.

"Want to prove yourself? Kill those dudes"

"Umm those dudes are us dudes"

"They are trying to prove themselves also...so... you die, they die...someone moves forward, stronger."

Then you have this epic dragon event and it's smooth and cool- then halfway through turns into a script animated by a 5 year old and transition hits hammering along like a middle school drum section.

imready2go said:

Dude in general chat (Mangler) made the statement yesterday that EQ3 would come out in time to compete with Pantheon. I couldn't decide what part of that statement was more hilarious.

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LOL! That's awesome.

I don't think an EverQuest 3 that any of us would be happy playing for long will ever come out because I seriously doubt that Daybreak Games nor their handlers will ever put the kind of money in to developing it that it will require... aka 70 to 100 million dollars. I would expect that the most you could ever expect out of Daybreak Games would be a sub 2 million dollar game created by 1 actual developer, 1 artist, and 3 interns.

Pharone said:

LOL! That's awesome.

I don't think an EverQuest 3 that any of us would be happy playing for long will ever come out because I seriously doubt that Daybreak Games nor their handlers will ever put the kind of money in to developing it that it will require... aka 70 to 100 million dollars. I would expect that the most you could ever expect out of Daybreak Games would be a sub 2 million dollar game created by 1 actual developer, 1 artist, and 3 interns.

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I'm legitimately curious why everyone thinks an MMO has to cost so much? Tech has changed drastically since The earlymid 2000's when the last set of games that this group unanimously like came out. You could redo an Everquest style game for much much less than that. Not saying that any current MMO studio could or would, but these massive money assumptions just seem false to me. Leveraging something like AWS alone could save massive amounts. Combine that with increasingly powerful game engines and 3d modeling / animation software and we're quickly approaching a day when you could recreate MMO with a couple indie devs.

The more I learn about this stuff the more I question what everything thinks is just common knowledge. Maybe I'm missing something.

Flobee said:

I'm legitimately curious why everyone thinks an MMO has to cost so much? Tech has changed drastically since The earlymid 2000's when the last set of games that this group unanimously like came out. You could redo an Everquest style game for much much less than that. Not saying that any current MMO studio could or would, but these massive money assumptions just seem false to me. Leveraging something like AWS alone could save massive amounts. Combine that with increasingly powerful game engines and 3d modeling / animation software and we're quickly approaching a day when you could recreate MMO with a couple indie devs.

The more I learn about this stuff the more I question what everything thinks is just common knowledge. Maybe I'm missing something.

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I think you are missing the cost of professional quality talent. A good tool is useless if you don't have someone that can use it to it's fullest extent.

Developers, artists, animators, and designers are not cheap unless you rely on bedroom hobbyists and interns. Do you not remember just how horrible the combat animations were in Vanguard? I mean seriously. It was pure ass shit. The rogue literally was crouched down like they were trying to take a shit, and they just pulled their daggers backwards and then thrust them forward at the same time. It looked like the animator was someone who just installed the software and made their first animation ever.

I can't tell you how many times in my career, as a web application developer, I have been brought in to a company to fix their shit because they had wasted a ton of money on some hobbyist's attempt to make professional applications. Real talent is not cheap, and it makes a huge difference.

I think that the shittastic videos for Pantheon should be a good example of what you get when you don't spend enough money to make a truly high quality game.

TL;DR... you get what you pay for.

Pharone said:

I think you are missing the cost of professional quality talent. A good tool is useless if you don't have someone that can use it to it's fullest extent.

Developers, artists, animators, and designers are not cheap unless you rely on bedroom hobbyists and interns. Do you not remember just how horrible the combat animations were in Vanguard? I mean seriously. It was pure ass shit. The rogue literally was crouched down like they were trying to take a shit, and they just pulled their daggers backwards and then thrust them forward at the same time. It looked like the animator was someone who just installed the software and made their first animation ever.

I think that the shittastic videos for Pantheon should be a good example of what you get when you don't spend enough money to make a truly high quality game.

TL;DR... you get what you pay for.

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How many devs do you need to rack up a $70 million bill? My point above is that the tools are getting easier to use and a single dev can do significantly more work. It just doesn't add up to this silly numbers people pull out of their ass.

Flobee said:

How many devs do you need to rack up a $70 million bill? My point above is that the tools are getting easier to use and a single dev can do significantly more work. It just doesn't add up to this silly numbers people pull out of their ass.

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I think you are highly under estimating the cost of making a triple A MMORPG, but if Pantheon ever ships, we will see just what an extremely low budget MMORPG looks like.

**edited to add the following**
For the record, I think that Pantheon looks like pure fucking ass from all of the videos I have seen so far. I have zero faith in their ability to make that in to a real game that anyone would be proud of playing for any extended length of time.

I'm by no means saying Pantheon is the team to do it (although who knows) just that I think it can and will be done.