Abortion

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chaos

chaos

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I don't think it is. It really doesn't matter, because there will never be an acceptable answer. There doesn't have to be some arbitrary line set for a moral argument to exist. And the shit you are arguing has nothing to do with the reality of abortion.
 
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Mikhail Bakunin_sl

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chaos_sl said:
I don't think it is. It really doesn't matter, because there will never be an acceptable answer. There doesn't have to be some arbitrary line set for a moral argument to exist. And the shit you are arguing has nothing to do with the reality of abortion.
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The moral argument is predicated on the idea that people are being murdered (or killed, if you prefer less inflammatory language). If your argument is that abortion, at any time in the pregnancy, is immoral (because "life begins at conception") you have already drawn such a line. It remains arbitrary only so long as you fail to justify it.
 
chaos

chaos

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Murder is a legal definition. Any line you chose would be random and not have meaning for a large number of people. I don't think morality is such a black and white thing.
 
Tuco

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I prefer to think of life as beginning at conception because it's the least arbitrary thing I can think of. I could value a 3rd trimester fetus higher than a 1st trimester fetus but I still regard both as being alive.
 
Tarrant

Tarrant

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Tuco_sl said:
I prefer to think of life as beginning at conception because it's the least arbitrary thing I can think of. I could value a 3rd trimester fetus higher than a 1st trimester fetus but I still regard both as being alive.
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Thsi is pretty much how I roll with it as well.
 
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The Ancient_sl

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Why is conception less arbitrary than when a life is viable outside the womb? What about the fact that a fairly high rate of fertilized eggs are miscarried naturally? Do you consider that a dead baby?
 
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Mikhail Bakunin_sl

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Tuco_sl said:
I prefer to think of life as beginning at conception because it's the least arbitrary thing I can think of. I could value a 3rd trimester fetus higher than a 1st trimester fetus but I still regard both as being alive.
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So I've already talked about why I consider that to be extremely misleading:

Mikhail Bakunin_sl said:
I think the relevant moral factor is the presence of a mind. I think that you're right that even such a distinction is not a hard line, but I think it's the relevant one andI think that saying "life begins at conception" is an extreme form of equivocation between the reality of what we think of when we think of our lives and the chemical process of cell division. You're not wrong to say there's definitely a gray area, but I also think there are some black and white areas too and I think "life begins at conception" is one of them.
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Tuco

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Mikhail Bakunin_sl said:
In other words, that sense of "alive" carries as much moral relevance as the proximal end of your hangnail being alive.
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Can we avoid hangnail metaphors or comparisons? Makes my skin crawl...

The two reasons I disagree with the comparison are:
1. The hangnail is not a unique set of DNA that is separate from me.
2. The hangnail has no chance of turning into a human being. (Unless it's being used as an argument of why a particular arc of Wolverine makes no sense).
ancient_sl said:
Why is conception less arbitrary than when a life is viable outside the womb? What about the fact that a fairly high rate of fertilized eggs are miscarried naturally?
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Natural miscarriages have nothing to do with what I think of as alive. What's interesting is that the intent behind this thinking (life only exists in creatures that are viable outside the womb, therefore abortion is wrong only if it kills a fetus that is viable outside the womb) is that I agree with it. Abortion is much more reprehensible when it terminates a fetus that is viable outside the womb. This is what sparked today's abortion discussion because if we have artificial wombs that can receive a very young fetus, then the difference between life beginning at conception and life beginning at out-of-womb-viability becomes miniscule.




I think that most people don't want to or are unable to separate the idea of something being alive with it being morally acceptable to end 'it'. I guess this has never been a big issue with me.
 
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Mikhail Bakunin_sl

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Tuco_sl said:
Can we avoid hangnail metaphors or comparisons? Makes my skin crawl...

The two reasons I disagree with the comparison are:
1. The hangnail is not a unique set of DNA that is separate from me.
2. The hangnail has no chance of turning into a human being. (Unless it's being used as an argument of why a particular arc of Wolverine makes no sense).
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What is the moral relevance of DNA or thechanceto turn into a person?
 
chaos

chaos

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If I totally ruin your chance to go on The Price is Right, am I not morally repugnant? Exact same thing.
 
TrollfaceDeux

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The Ancient_sl said:
Why is conception less arbitrary than when a life is viable outside the womb? What about the fact that a fairly high rate of fertilized eggs are miscarried naturally? Do you consider that a dead baby?
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I thought we were talking about beginning point of life and what kind of protection that life deserves. I am not sure how that miscarriage is comparable to the act of abortion, since act of abortion may be considered an act of murder while miscarriage is not. I've heard this argument a number of times in lecture debates and I kept asking myself, "Is life less deserving when it is more likely to face unfortunate termination that is not intentional nor benevolent?" I do agree that every stance here is just as arbitrary as other.
 
Tuco

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Mikhail Bakunin_sl said:
Nope.
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Then we find ourselves on unequal footing. Before you attempt to break words with me you must earn your place in the annals of proper tv consumption by witnessing Spartacus, bringer of rain.

spoiler: One of the main characters reflects in how joy can only be found in the future and that the past has only regret and the current has only pain. It's not a convincing argument but I love the show.
 
chaos

chaos

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Mikhail Bakunin_sl said:
Except that in this case I'm not me (or anyone else) until after I go on the price is right. So no, you're not actually hurting anyone.
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So you say. Is it easier to reconcile it with your morality if it is anonymous? If we give the fetus a name, does that make it more difficult for you?
 
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