Abortion

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Pancreas

Vyemm Raider
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Aristotle's claim for the 40 and 90 day cut off points was based on his assumption that the embryos prior to that point were imbued only with animal and plant spirits and not human ones. In several thousand years, what we know about neuroscience may be seen in the same quaint light. And just to be clear, most aborted fetuses have begun developing brains, nervous systems and hearts.

I mention the unique properties of the embryonic DNA simply to illustrate that the human that would have developed from that early organism, is never going to be seen, ever. If you can tell me exactly all of the implications of not letting that person exist, then great, we don't need to consider this matter further. The fact that you can't means that it is a very serious decision to undertake. This process of selection defines the world we are creating in regards to the absence or presence of these individuals.

I have however, said nothing about trying to save these instances of humanity, I am speaking specifically to the intended disruption of this process. To interfere and save all potential embryos from their mother's inefficient wombs would have the exact same moral implications as terminating them. We are manipulating the naturally evolved process to meet our definition of what is right or allowed. Using fertility drugs, or in some cases over using them, can result in danger to the mother and her children. Every action we take in spite of nature has consequences.

Also, you are causing the ideas of human life and the protection of that life to be fused at all points. Before technology we lived at the whim of nature. We lived and died to forces beyond our control. Technology is allowing us to wrest that control and create artificial scenarios. We can place people on life support for extended periods of time. We then have to consider the implications of allowing people to live in such a state, far beyond the time their bodies would have failed. If we don't consider our actions we can end up with horrific situations that would not have occurred otherwise.

You are saying that since all human life must be protected at all costs, the only way abortions can occur is if we define the early developmental stages of humanity as not human or not "alive".

I am saying that human life begins at conception and never stops developing until we die. That if we determine certain stages of that development to be terminated permissibly, we should define those stages clearly. And if we do, we must accept that we terminated a human life, regardless of where in that development cycle it happened to occur.
 
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So...I don't think you really get how science works. Science is what it's reasonable to believe right now. It is inevitable that some elements of science will be overturned as time goes on. At no point is disregarding science for that reason the reasonable course. The examples of its failures get cherry picked by people trying to ignore it, but the fact is science overwhelmingly works (and frankly it works better now than at any time in the past, and that's pretty much always true).

No one could tell youeveryimplication of ANY choice. That's a terrible standard.

This process of selection defines the world we are creating in regards to the absence or presence of these individuals.
Exactly the same reasoning applies to any set of behaviors that reduces the fertility rate below the fecundity rate and we do it all the time.

We rescue people from cancers that develop naturally too. All of modern medicine could be said to be intervention into a naturally evolved process. So what?

Using fertility drugs, or in some cases over using them, can result in danger to the mother and her children. Every action we take in spite of nature has consequences.
Certainly the danger she faces is less than the certainty of total oblivion (literally 100% of their life) faced by those left unborn. Do their lives mean so little to you?

Also, you are causing the ideas of human life and the protection of that life to be fused at all points. Before technology we lived at the whim of nature. We lived and died to forces beyond our control. Technology is allowing us to wrest that control and create artificial scenarios. We can place people on life support for extended periods of time. We then have to consider the implications of allowing people to live in such a state, far beyond the time their bodies would have failed. If we don't consider our actions we can end up with horrific situations that would not have occurred otherwise.
Actually I'm arguing precisely the opposite point. My standard specifically condemns keeping human bodies "alive" in a permanent vegetative state.

You are saying that since all human life must be protected at all costs, the only way abortions can occur is if we define the early developmental stages of humanity as not human or not "alive".
It is alive in a strictly biological sense. I don't think it's reasonable to say that it's a person yet. I think suggests adeeplyunscientific view of identity.

I am saying that human life begins at conception and never stops developing until we die. That if we determine certain stages of that development to be terminated permissibly, we should define those stages clearly. And if we do, we must accept that we terminated a human life, regardless of where in that development cycle it happened to occur.
Does begging the question usually work for you?
 

Selix

Lord Nagafen Raider
2,149
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I think can safely say the we all agree that passing anti-abortion laws would be as much a waste of time as the anti-drug laws regardless of the moral issues you believe in.

But to throw a wrench in the black/white morals of human life sanctity what happens when the earth fills up to a point that is unmistakably dangerous for all living humans? Although it is a hypothetical it isn't totally outside the bounds of possibility and if we can change our morals to fit the circumstances (which we certainly have done and will do again) what does that say about the absolute protection some wish to place on the sperm/egg now?

It would be easy to say that we would deal with it when the time came but it's harder to say just how we would deal with it. We could certainty work to stem the tide of pregnancies with various measures but given the hypothetical size of the population at that time any given anti-pregnancy measure would be worse then a stop-gap.

Anyway I could go on and on about ways to mitigate the issue but the point of this hypothetical is that eventually would we choose to preserve some measure of our liberty and space by allowing abortion to continue to be a viable option. So does that then mean we are all inherently evil? That morals are circumstantial? That morals are absolute only when it fits our individual worldview? That is the point of this hypothetical.
 

Pancreas

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You think that identity and awareness are required for the definition of human life. By that definition, people who fall asleep temporarily stop being human. If someone where to be in a coma do they lose their status as a human being? And then if they were to recover and wake up, now they are human again? You claim that your definition is scientific, but it is just as arbitrary as any other system that has been devised in the past.

You make a distinction between being alive and being a person. If persons were spawned fully formed and fully aware, then this might be the point to make. But all persons originated from simpler forms. To interrupt that transformation process is to interrupt the person that would be. You try and alleviate the burden of this, by stating that the point at which the interruption takes place, absolves us of any moral responsibility, regardless of the effects of the action. If we were unaware of what those cells might develop into, then yes we could claim ignorance and some of the responsibility that goes with these actions. But that is not the case, we understand fully what we are doing when we intervene in this process.

You keep trying to assert that if we adopt the definition that human life begins at conception, it can not be terminated. You go so far as to say that all potential human life must therefor be saved if such a view is taken. Why? Why can't human life be terminated in the early stages of development? Why must you define human life as being an exclusive condition that starts at some point afterwards, that requires identity and cognition? Why must you define that which is terminated as not being human? Is it impossible to respect the potential humanity that those cells contain?

In each case, abortion and removal of life support, you feel the need to remove any traces of humanity before proceeding. "We are just eliminating some cells, and we're just removing a body". That seems unnecessary to me. Why can't we just admit that we are terminating humans, not cells or bodies? The actions are still justifiable, but we do not lose the gravity of those actions. We do lose that sense, when we redefine the subjects as inert tissue.

Finally, I was not begging the question, I was stating that IF we use the humanity from conception definition, THEN we must also accept that we terminated a human life during an abortion. As that is one of the effects of that definition.
 

moonarchia

The Scientific Shitlord
24,515
46,176
The zygote has the potential to become a human being, for sure. But it is not one yet. Until the body is fully formed (the brain especially) and the various biological functions are all operational it's not a human. That's like saying an unfinished frame in the factory is a car.
 

Nuttin_sl

shitlord
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1
I think that only the gender that has the capability to give birth to a child, should also be the one who in the end makes abortion laws.

This is not something we men should decide.
 

Pancreas

Vyemm Raider
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Women don't reproduce asexually. Until they do, I think it's just as important for the male partners to be involved in the process. To place all responsibility on the woman is unfair.
 

a_skeleton_03

<Banned>
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The zygote has the potential to become a human being, for sure. But it is not one yet.
I always love this statement about "potential".

What else is it going to become? A duck? It's going to be human. The issues are whether it will die naturally prematurely, be killed by an abortionist, or be delivered.

This potential bullshit is a copout. Always has been.
 
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In each case, abortion and removal of life support, you feel the need to remove any traces of humanity before proceeding.
I can't "remove" something that's not there.

"We are just eliminating some cells, and we're just removing a body". That seems unnecessary to me. Why can't we just admit that we are terminating humans, not cells or bodies?
Because in the cases you're talking about, the thing that makes them human beings isn't there. What makes you a human being isn't your cells. Your body is a thing you are attached to and dependent upon, but it's not your identity. In the cases you're talking about there's no "you" there (either because the person is effectively dead or because they've effectively never lived). You can repeat this magic DNA bullshit till you're blue in the face but that means fucking nothing to me. You are your mind. DNA isn't relevant at all. If we were to replace our bodies with synthetic components including. presumably, some sort of transfer of consciousness into an artificial brain, we wouldn't be any less people. Exactly the same moral principles are in play (though obviously the circumstances would be altered greatly). That only follows because your identity is your mind.

The actions are still justifiable, but we do not lose the gravity of those actions. We do lose that sense, when we redefine the subjects as inert tissue.
I don't think that gravity really exists. I think you are imbuing it into the situation because of your theological convictions (which you're covering with this magic DNA tripe).

Finally, I was not begging the question, I was stating that IF we use the humanity from conception definition, THEN we must also accept that we terminated a human life during an abortion. As that is one of the effects of that definition.
That's pretty much the textbook definition of begging the question.
 
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For example, corpses are humans that used to be people (but now are corpses). Zygotes are humans that haven't become people yet for exactly the same reason.
 

hodj

Vox Populi Jihadi
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Pretty sure human corpses remain humans, and in fact are ascribed a ridiculous amount of value by virtually every culture for at least the past 80,000 years of human existence. Even homo erectus venerated their dead. And its not like when you die you morph into a fucking elephant.

Bones are given a pretty high status in American society, what with many prehistoric populations falling under the protection of laws like the Native American Grave Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA), and corpses have all sorts of laws protecting them from descration. You can't fuck a corpse, can't mutilate it, it must be handled with respect, processed properly for burial, can't be exhumed without good, legally sound and justified cause, etc. All these are signs, from a cultural point of view, that the dead are venerated and still considered human and given all the respect accorded that status, even in the "afterlife." Even busting tombstones is viewed as a criminal act of vandalism that goes beyond normal vandalism for this very reason. Any argument that the dead aren't accorded respect the same as living human beings is inherently flawed.

Bad argument is bad.