Abortion

Caliane · Dec 20, 2012

no, I'm pretty sure anyone that base it on science can agree.
Its when you base it on religion that you don't.

Is that mass of cells alive? sure.
Is it a child of cell culture of the parent donors? sure.

My blood is alive too. Now, when I donate it.. I am not living inside someone else.
Its just some cells man. Livers, whatever.
If the brain ain't working its not a person yet.

hell, mother nature aborts fetuses all the time.

Tuco · Dec 20, 2012

chaos_sl said:
That is the major sticking point, no one can agree on when that is. Personally, I don't think there is some magical threshold. You wouldn't call a toddler just a collection of cells because it isn't an adult yet. I think the entire argument of "when is/isn't it human" is something people have so they don't have to feel bad about what happens. It is easier to dehumanize the impacted party rather than deal with the fact that hey, this was a life and that life is gone.

I could call a toddler, you and myself 'just a collection of cells'. Since it's 100% true.

Caliane_sl said:
If the brain ain't working its not a person yet.

When I'm drunk out of my mind am I not a person?

chaos · Dec 20, 2012

Caliane_sl said:
no, I'm pretty sure anyone that base it on science can agree.
Its when you base it on religion that you don't.

Really? When does science specifically state that a fetus is now a human being and no longer a fetus?

People can talk about viability or harm to the mother or whatever, but that is a different question than "is this human?"

chaos · Dec 20, 2012

Tuco_sl said:
I could call a toddler, you and myself 'just a collection of cells'. Since it's 100% true.

You could, but everyone would think you are either crazy or being one of 'those" guys. The implication is that it is only a collection of cells, NOT human, and so it doesn't matter. It is a tactic used to create emotional distance. Which honestly isn't a bad thing for people involved in the procedure. Every woman I've ever known who had an abortion, it was very hard on them. A little emotional distance might do them some good.

hodj · Dec 20, 2012

Eh I dunno. Even from a scientific point of view you could see it in many different ways. From a strictly biological point of view, two gametes have united, the DNA which codes for the specific individual is completely formed, is producing proteins and working towards cellular division and growth. I don't necessarily see how someone could, from that perspective, claim a ten minute old speck of fetal tissue isn't a "human". Its not going to develop into a dog or something at that point (though the embryos of a huge selection of eukaryotic mammals have many homologies during early gestational development.)

But then you can also look at a cognitive sciences view and say "Well, if its not cognizant of its existence, then its not a human being" which was the take one set of ethicists from the UK took in the Journal of Medical Ethics regarding even post partum abortion up to two years of age.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health...anticide_.html

Even from a strictly scientific point of view, personal ethics/world view seems to take a rather large part of the picture, and its not like the scientific community is some sort of monolithic block on issues like this, though most sociologists and the like will tell you that access to birth control and abortions when necessary have a generally good impact on society overall, and I think it would be hard to argue they're wrong on that point.

Tuco · Dec 20, 2012

chaos_sl said:
It is a tactic used to create emotional distance. Which honestly isn't a bad thing for people involved in the procedure. Every woman I've ever known who had an abortion, it was very hard on them. A little emotional distance might do them some good.

I think on that point I can easily agree. The type of discussion I'd have with someone going through an abortion is entirely different than what I posit to a group of dudes debating over morality.

hodj_sl said:
From a strictly biological point of view, two gametes have united, the DNA which codes for the specific individual is completely formed, is producing proteins and working towards cellular division and growth. I don't necessarily see how someone could, from that perspective, claim a ten minute old speck of fetal tissue isn't a "human".

This is, more or less, my perspective on why I believe life starts at conception.

chaos · Dec 20, 2012

I was being honest in my question of when does science says it is human, because hey, I could be wrong. But my understanding was that science didn't really make a distinction that is meaningful for a discussion on an issue like this outside of fetal viability. That blastocyte is a human at some stage in development, still a human though.

Harfle · Dec 20, 2012

ABORTION IS GOOD IF MORE PEOPLE USED IT WE WOULDN'T HAVE PEOPLE LIKE AGONIZING!

Gavinmad · Dec 20, 2012

If it wasn't for abortion Harfle would be a deadbeat on something like 30 child support payments.

tad10 · Dec 21, 2012

Julian the Apostate_sl said:
This is a topic that I've been thinking about a lot lately and im interested in different perspectives and viewpoints.

My current stance is that abortion is absolutely acceptable in the case of rape or incest.

No. Murder is murder. We're all descended from someone who was born because of rape or incest - even if it was 500 or 1500 or 50 years ago.

Tuco_sl said:
I also believe that women should have the right to choose.

Yeah? Wait until you get a girl pregnant and you want the baby and she doesn't.
Conversely, Wait until you get a girl pregnant and you know nothing about it until she has the baby and sues you for child support.
Finally, what about the baby? You're willing to giver murders, rapists, conmen and other scum rights but not an innocent child?

Democrats: protect the guilty, abort the innocent.

Tuco · Dec 21, 2012

tad10_sl said:
Yeah? Wait until you get a girl pregnant and you want the baby and she doesn't.

Wouldn't be an easy situation but birth is a binary operation and someone has to have precedence. Since you put me in there individually, I can as an individual take responsibility to not knock up a girl until we agree to get knocked up.

Karloff_sl · Dec 21, 2012

tad10_sl said:
No. Murder is murder. We're all descended from someone who was born because of rape or incest - even if it was 500 or 1500 or 50 years ago.

Yeah? Wait until you get a girl pregnant and you want the baby and she doesn't.
Conversely, Wait until you get a girl pregnant and you know nothing about it until she has the baby and sues you for child support.
Finally, what about the baby? You're willing to giver murders, rapists, conmen and other scum rights but not an innocent child?
Democrats: protect the guilty, abort the innocent.

And here we go.....

TheBeagle · Dec 21, 2012

Well it went well for 129 posts before tad10 decided to take a shit on it.

tad10 · Dec 21, 2012

Tuco_sl said:
Wouldn't be an easy situation but birth is a binary operation and someone has to have precedence. Since you put me in there individually, I can as an individual take responsibility to not knock up a girl until we agree to get knocked up.

And your Condom breaks... Or her protection fails.

You are both adults and you know the risks. Why should the baby get killed for risks you both knowingly accepted when you had sex.

tad10 · Dec 21, 2012

TheBeagle_sl said:
Well it went well for 129 posts before tad10 decided to take a shit on it.

You guys were fucking around and you know it. The majority of abortion occurs when that clump is much further along than 'cells'. IIRC, it's a minimum of ten to twelve weeks before you can have an abortion. And of course framing it about cells ignores all those lovely second and third trimester abortions.

Abortion is murder. You either accept that as the price of easily available sex or you don't. If you do, fuck you - but at least I'll respect you for owning up to what you want and doing what you need to get you want. You're on your path to Super Villain hood but that's something.

If you think abortion is all about 'cells' then you're just morally and intellectually retarded.

Fyro · Dec 21, 2012

tad10_sl said:
And your Condom breaks... Or her protection fails.

You are both adults and you know the risks. Why should the baby get killed for risks you both knowingly accepted when you had sex.

We are all going in circles.

We can agree life starts at conception. But, can we also agree that this 'life' is not a baby. Aborting what would become a baby, even if it is 'living' tissue/cells.

We are not talking about third trimester babies.

And also Tad, dude, get off of your politics horse. No one cares if you are a Dem or a Rep in here. We are discussing abortion you one note fuck.

tad10 · Dec 21, 2012

Fyro_sl said:
We are not talking about third trimester babies.

Of course we are buddy. The USA has the most liberal abortion laws in the world. Under Roe v. Wade, which is still the law of the land, it is legal to abort a baby up until the moment of actual birth.

That's what you're $10 donation to Planned Parenthood has gotten you: an ethical nightmare.

This isn't fucking college where you're trying to sleep with the easy co-eds by going all liberal plushy on them.

Just today Putin enacted a law to halt US adoptions. Why the fuck are Americans trying to adopt Russian/Chinese/Romanian Babes? Because the normal adoptive supply which came from accidents ceased back in 1972 due to Roe.

Just one of many fun results of that decision, and if you're talking abortion than you're talking consequences as well.

Karloff_sl · Dec 21, 2012

tad10_sl said:
Of course we are buddy. The USA has the most liberal abortion laws in the world. Under Roe v. Wade, which is still the law of the land, it is legal to abort a baby up until the moment of actual birth
That's what you're $10 donation to Planned Parenthood has gotten you: an ethical nightmare.

This isn't fucking college where you're trying to sleep with the easy co-eds by going all liberal plushy on them.

Just today Putin enacted a law to halt US adoptions. Why the fuck are Americans trying to adopt Russian/Chinese/Romanian Babes? Because the normal adoptive supply which came from accidents ceased back in 1972 due to Roe.

Just one of many fun results of that decision, and if you're talking abortion than you're talking consequences as well.

There are plenty of kids to adopt, problem is most folks who adopt are white and they don't want older children or black kids. Asian kids are a status symbol and last I looked russian children are white.

GuardianX · Dec 21, 2012

tad10_sl said:
Just today Putin enacted a law to halt US adoptions. Why the fuck are Americans trying to adopt Russian/Chinese/Romanian Babes?Because the normal adoptive supply which came from accidents ceased back in 1972 due to Roe.

Just one of many fun results of that decision, and if you're talking abortion than you're talking consequences as well.

I've always wondered about this, but you sounds pretty crazy so do you have any stats on this?

I'll do my own digging now that I'm interested but I'd like to know where you pulled the info from.

tad10 · Dec 21, 2012

GuardianX_sl said:
I've always wondered about this, but you sounds pretty crazy so do you have any stats on this?

I'll do my own digging now that I'm interested but I'd like to know where you pulled the info from.

.Less than 3% of white unmarried women and less than 2% of Black unmarried women. (Mosher and Bachrach, 1996)
.Of Black women with premarital births,
From 1952 to 1972, 1.5% placed their children for adoption.
From 1973 to 1981, this percentage fell to .2%
From 1982 to 1988, it rose to 1.1%.

.Of White women with premarital births,
From 1952 to 1972, 19.3% placed their children for adoption.
From 1973 to 1981, this percentage fell to 7.6%.
From 1982 to 1988, it fell further to 3.2%. (Bachrach, Stolley, London, 1992)

Sociologists attempt to bullshit and say there is no relationship between abortion and drop in adoption.
And you wonder why I think the social sciences are where the moutbreathers of academia nest? Yes availability of contraception plays into it but note the very signifcant drop in the Black given to adoption rate rate. As you know Black women and many minorities (such as Hispanics) abort at a much higher rate then white woman (availability of contraception thus the drop there is almost certainly due to unwanted kids getting aborted.

Abortion

Avatar of War Slayer

I got Tuco'd!

Buzzfeed Editor

Buzzfeed Editor

Vox Populi Jihadi

I got Tuco'd!

Buzzfeed Editor

Lord Nagafen Raider

Mr. Poopybutthole

Elisha Dushku

I got Tuco'd!

shitlord

JunkiesNetwork Donor

Elisha Dushku

Elisha Dushku

Golden Squire

Elisha Dushku

shitlord

Perpetually Pessimistic

Elisha Dushku