Abortion

cosmic_cs_sl said:

But what if the baby causes her to change and look at life differently

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this is what we all hoped for.. it worked for a little bit (while pregnant) she stopped fucking with shit like xanax and smoking/ drinking etc, but fuck as soon as that baby popped out it was time for mommy to get back to her life of partying and eating as many dicks as possible, everyone but her watches her baby.

shes kinda settling down maybe? she found 1 guy that for whatever reason wants to stick around her crazy ass but i think he dosent have a better situation and is just using her for a place to stay and shit, so she dosent go out much except to a friends wich is every night.... she goes there to drink and smoke pop xannies and her mother ends up putting the baby to bed. I know her mother is enabling this kinda behavior by not making her sack up and stay home to watch her own baby, shes 21 btw.

shes so warped in the head though... i think shes going to hit rockbottom again before she ever sees the light in front of her...(her precious baby girl) and we just hope DCF dosent come in and snatch her up from us. (shes been in an out of treatment centers 2-3 times before this baby came along, for a xanax problem.)


Its people like my cousin that make me feel like abortions should be fucking forced upon idiots like her, who have a fucking track record of substance abuse(i know its harsh) Some people like you said see the light and do change for the better, but i bet the number is far greater for the ones who continue to be worthless shitbags into motherhood.

A mass of cells isn't a child.
A child isn't an adult.

A cell that may develop into a cancerous cell at a later point isn't cancerous now.

Sperm isn't a child either.

The birth rate in most developed countries is now crossing the 1.5 children per women mark. Canada is tanking fast. Last time I saw the US is at 2.0, the highest in the developed world. I'm pro-choice but the easier way to fix this problem is educate both girls and boys in school, offer cheap and safe birth control. Condoms are not a valid form of birth control, I know way too many people who get knocked up using condoms to justify their use for birth control. Condoms work if they are used 100% properly, most people fuck up from time to time.

On the abortion front, first one is free. Second one under special circumstances is free (rape, might kill the women). Third you are shit out of luck, complete denial of the procedure. In my opinion that is a very fair system. All abortions are first trimester.

Again the easiest way to handle abortion is to never have to actually abort the damn fetus in the first place. All my friends have been going at it for over 10 years and none of them have knocked up their gal. We were also educated for 5 god damn years in public school, and my mother breathing down my back to make sure I dont make her a grandmother before 55 years.

By the way, my mother had me as a single mother at 22 with nobody to help. I'm so damn luckly that my mother turned her life around, went back to school, got her highschool diploma, finished Register Nursing and made a life for herself. I know have an amazing family but it wasn't handed to her, she is a strong women. I can't say the same for all the single moms from my redneck hometown who go out and still party after putting out another cretin. I grew up defying the status quo and in a country that every person who can't contribute to society, only brings it down for the rest. These mothers don't deserve the right to have children.

Sorry Double post, SFO wireless is getting hammered I think. Keeps dropping connections or hanging when loading pages.

I shudder to think what you all think of cloning, and its place in this.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child, wtf do you think of THAT.

Caliane_sl said:

I shutter to think what you all think of cloning, and its place in this.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child, wtf do you think of THAT.

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I think you are confused about what can be questioned in a moral framework. Like I said before, if you make a conscious decision and act upon it, then that act can be morally scrutinized.

Once a zygote has formed, if you make the decision to abort it, you've eliminated the possibility of life for that zygote, and to put it bluntly, you've taken its life. Also, I've made the point that there is no "present" time in science, so there are really only 3 variables affecting the future life of the "baby" once a zygote is formed:

1) Whether there are appropriate nutrients and environment to support its growth
2) Whether there may some error in its growth process that causes spontaneous abortion
3) Whether an outside decision maker decides to either abort it or make growth conditions unsustainable (by drinking a lot or taking drugs or whatever)

#3 is the only one that can be morally scrutinized.

I'm supportive of women's rights to have an abortion, but I still believe that it is technically taking a life. Likewise, even though I think vegetarianism is morally superior, I'm not disciplined enough to be one full-time.

Caliane_sl said:

A mass of cells isn't a child.
A child isn't an adult..

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Because a baby at three months is a mass o' cells right?

chaos_sl said:

I was being honest in my question of when does science says it is human, because hey, I could be wrong. But my understanding was that science didn't really make a distinction that is meaningful for a discussion on an issue like this outside of fetal viability. That blastocyte is a human at some stage in development, still a human though.

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Science is not competent to make this distinction since the question of whether someone or something is human is a matter of opinion not a statement of fact.

The transition of mass of cells to oh-fuck-that's-a-baby-better-arm-the-fetus-with-a-hand-cannon-to-protect-it-from-its-abortionist-mother is an example of Sorites Paradox.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorites_paradox

Been trying to keep up with this thread; the one thing I want to ask about is how do you guys feel concerning those wacko cases where women somehow save the sperm, get themselves pregnant and then sue the guy for child support? (And we're talking in scenarios where there is no reasonable way that a childcouldresult from the actions, IE oral sex.)

Would you be in favor of an abortion then? (I think someone went to court to try to get the judge to agree to abort it, but I believe that quickly was denied.)

In vitro fertilization.

Multiple eggs are taken. Multiple eggs are fertilized. Multiple fertilized embryos are implanted. Wait to see if they take.

So are we murdering 10-20 kids every time a women gets in vitro?

Caliane_sl said:

In vitro fertilization.

Multiple eggs are taken. Multiple eggs are fertilized. Multiple fertilized embryos are implanted. Wait to see if they take.

So are we murdering 10-20 kids every time a women gets in vitro?

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And this is one of the biggest problems with 'personhood' amendments. You ultimately close the door on IVF for couples having troubles conceiving. Which is very, very unfair. But you cant create an exception for IVF (or birth control pills for that matter) that ultimately would survive an equal protection challenge.

I don't really see it as abusing the word.


anymore then anyone is misusing the word life anyway...
We have to start right there. "Life begins at conception." Right away you are confusing theism into the subject. Because you can only mean spirit. not life, when you say life.
The sperm was alive, the egg was alive, embryo, blood, etc. That a cell is or is not alive is meaningless. Life began 20 billion years ago or something. No one will say life begins at birth, or formation of brain. because, no shit, the body was alive the entire time. Alternatively what you are saying is a child organism begins at conception. At which point we can begin the discussion, at what point does that organism become viable to the point, that it is a separate being, and thus deserves rights. Because as pointed out, many fertilized child organisms do not take naturally. And no one cries for them. Personally, I'm looking at the end of the first trimester. Brain has started to form. 2nd trimester brain starts to attach to ears, nervous system. (note, before midway into 2nd, the embryo literally can not feel pain, as the brain isn't even attached to nerves.) 3rd, cerebral cortex forms. AFTER that, you have a person clearly.

There are cases of siamese twins with just arms, and shit. one twin was absorbed, but not fully. Is this twin's arm a separate "life"?

But if you are trying to define cells, as life, and life as a having the rights of a human, then how is it not murder? many people have said just that. "Killing a child" If its a child, and you kill it. its murder.