Noodleface
A Mod Real Quick
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Actually playing Starcraft 2
- Thread starter Zaphid
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Noodleface
A Mod Real Quick
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Just got fucked by a Protoss that put a proxy gateway inside my expansion in a corner. Besides properly scouting that, how can a Zerg effectively counter that once the zealots start pouring in?
Gilgamel
A Man Chooses....
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Alright, I'm outmacroing my opponents pretty heavily now and just getting smashed when it comes to engaging. Anyone wanna watch this and give me some tips? Happened over and over tonight.
Akilon Wastes (35).SC2Replay
Akilon Wastes (34).SC2Replay
I know I'm bad, but I had been just crushing people A-moving and now that's not working hah.
Akilon Wastes (35).SC2Replay
Akilon Wastes (34).SC2Replay
I know I'm bad, but I had been just crushing people A-moving and now that's not working hah.
Noodleface
A Mod Real Quick
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Yeah I think a big problem was I overlord scouted and the rush came so quickly he basically caught me with my pants down.
Reorganized the way I setup my hot keys and feeling a lot better. Basically I'm throwing my hatcheries on 5 and 5+ are all my queens so I can easily switch views to the hatcheries and inject. Putting te armies on 1 through 4.
Just need to work on figuring out what counters what now. For awhile I would think X counters Y and then be told different by someone and feeling heavens light shine down on me. For instance I was lost when heavy mech comes out, totally forgot that vipers can really shine in a battle like that. Oh well, just keep playing and try to learn from any game I play (win or lose).
Zaphid
Trakanon Raider
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looked at the TvP:
No reason to NOT go into base with the reaper, there is nothing that can kill it at that point in time without you having time to react. You will fuck it up a few times, but that's part of the learning. Good idea is to keep the reaper at the edge of their natural so you know when it's taken and if it's later than 5-5:30 and no nexus, start building bunkers. You also play very passive, when you get your first 2 medivacs is one of the strongest timings you have, move out to scout and kill stuff. You could also try some of the tech openings into harass, like mine or hellbat drops to stretch your multitasking, since you seem to play really passive. Get used to placing a marine at each watchtower, those things will save you a lot of dumb losses. Obviously you have to work on your lategame macro, since if you could remake your army faster and just a-move the toss, you would win since he had no bank.
Mures
Blackwing Lair Raider
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If you didn't scout it at all until zealots were already in your mineral line than there is most likely nothing you could have done depending on what your bo was. May as well just gg out at that point to save you time and accept the fact that sometimes you will straight up bo lose to extreme cheese unless you handicap yourself every game. Although you definitely want to keep track of an enemies probe, position an overlord at the entrance of your base, if a probe enters and doesn't leave its probably proxying, if it enters and leaves scout around your base for any proxy and resume mining. Once your first lings pop out scout all around your side of the map for the probe and/or forward pylons.
Zaphid
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Well, the thing is, playing a little bit inefficient is usually worth it when it saves your ass from cheese in the early game. If you can stomp any kind of early game crap, you are looking at 10-20% of your games being free wins
People fail to realize that unless you're tip top Master/GM playing safe is probably the best bet. The reason professionals play these greedy and corner cutting builds is because they simply have to find edges over their opponent because the idea is their opponent is playing perfectly. For every mistake you make remember your opponent probably made an equally costly mistake. So you don't have to 14 hatch/no drone on every single map every single time because Ret does it. He is playing a different game than you. So if you don't play with the ultimate most efficient opener for ultimate late game macro eco you can find different areas to pick up the edges like not losing to gay shit, map awareness and staying supply unlocked.
Mures
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I agree with everything you have both said. I'm not saying don't drone scout in silver league; I'm just saying you can't prepare for everything. Obviously the most important step to stopping cheese is scouting it in a timely manner. If you go hatch first and miss a protoss throwing down two gateways in your base you will lose 10/10 times as no level of control or decision making will be able to save you at that point.
Zaphid
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You definitely can, at least in the first few minutes. I hit all the possible proxy locations with my scouting probe in PvP, haven't lost to a proxy in a month. Of course you also need a safe opening, one gate nexus in PvP is really risky unless you scout a single gas or something. However, to cout and counter something, you have to be aware that it exists in a first place, so don't mistake what I just said for being immune to cheese.
Mures
Blackwing Lair Raider
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I don't play enough zerg or protoss to know exact timings so I can't say you definitely can or can not, but I have seen more than one pro lose from a hatch first opening against an unscouted two proxy gateway, I have never seen one win or even hold evenly against it.
Don't mistake that for saying proxy gateway isn't easily scouted and that you should play so greedy as to not scout at all. Just saying if he is in that position again just gg because it is an auto loss.
Don't mistake that for saying proxy gateway isn't easily scouted and that you should play so greedy as to not scout at all. Just saying if he is in that position again just gg because it is an auto loss.
Noodleface
A Mod Real Quick
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If I had scouted it I still would've had trouble because it was insanely fast, but I think if I threw down some spines and zerglings I could've stopped it. Wasn't in my base but actually in my expansion.
Mures
Blackwing Lair Raider
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Exactly, even scouting it its incredibly difficult to hold. I just did the timings myself and as I thought, it is not possible to hold if unscouted. If you do 15 hatch 15 pool the first lings pop out about 4:15 and the queen about 4:40. Proxy two gateway has 6 zealots at 4:45 in your mineral line, possibly sooner on shorter distance maps because I had to wait a few seconds for my probe to build the first pylon even sending it immediately at the start of the match. So in other words my whole point was you can say you should do this and you should do that, but if it isn't scouted in time it doesn't make a lick of difference.
Edited to add - Actually my initial point before being sidetracked by scouting is that just because hatch first is an auto loss to two proxy gateway when unscouted doesn't mean you should never go hatch first against protoss. Although hatch first is extremely standard and typically safe it is still somewhat a risk and you do have to diligently scout. Meaning you shouldn't just auto-pilot and assume your opponent is playing a standard game.
Edited to add - Actually my initial point before being sidetracked by scouting is that just because hatch first is an auto loss to two proxy gateway when unscouted doesn't mean you should never go hatch first against protoss. Although hatch first is extremely standard and typically safe it is still somewhat a risk and you do have to diligently scout. Meaning you shouldn't just auto-pilot and assume your opponent is playing a standard game.
Zaphid
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You do an opening that isn't generally considered safe and you are bad enough to open safe, even if it's not optimal and make up for it later. Pros lose to it because they go for every advantage they can get and they need it, you don't. Tenks said it pretty well.
Noodleface
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Yeah I started last night to do a slightly safer opening (15pool/15gas/15hatch) and while I feel slightly behind economically for a few minutes, I am able to better put down some opening aggression (another weak point for me). I actually made it a point that I needed to send a bunch of units in the beginning to try to lock down on expos and harass the mineral line. Won a few games just doing that with people rage quitting. I know it won't last outside of silver, but it was something I definitely needed to work on.
This game is like a puzzle, everytime I try to improve an aspect of my playing another small piece fits in.
This game is like a puzzle, everytime I try to improve an aspect of my playing another small piece fits in.
Should also note that in the wood leagues if you put any kind of pressure on your opponent they will freak out and make mistake left and right. People discredit using aggressive builds in lower leagues saying it will not teach you how to play "right" (I'm sure you could find tons of post by me 2 years ago saying the same thing) but the fact of the matter is in SC2 you simply have to learn how to macro your base while also attacking and scouting. Aggressive builds for the most part teach this. I'm not saying "all-in" builds like a 7RR or 4gate because you just build your infrastructure then keep attacking. I'm talking about stuff like 2rax reaper, 2hatch muta (prob not the best since I think 3hatch is better), 3gate Robo busts. Things like that. IMO it forces you to learn a skill set that is much harder to learn than simple full-out eco base management. Which is honestly quite trivial.
Mures
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Again, I agree with you, other than saying hatch first isn't generally considered safe, which is just wrong. Pros lose to it when they don't scout it because they are playing as economically greedy as they can. Their opponents can see if they open hatch first and don't scout and punish them the next game with a two proxy gateway in an effort to keep them honest the following games. Two proxy gateway is like the lowest common denomonator cheese, especially against zerg, and hatch first can still hold it when scouted properly. I'm not saying you can not, not open hatch first in lower leagues or that you should open hatch first in lower leagues. But you shouldn't not do it just because you may get proxy gatewayed 1/40 games.
Mures
Blackwing Lair Raider
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Which goes back to my, you can't prepare for everything all the time. Proxy gateways are going to happen, cannon rushes are going to happen, the sooner you learn how to hold them with the most optimal build for you, your league, the better. There is no I'm always 100% safe to everything build. Say noodle goes 15 pool/15 hatch and loses to two proxy gateway again because again he didn't scout it, does he go 13/14 pool next game? And then when his next opponent crushes him with their first push out at 10 minutes because they had double his supply then what? Preparing for cheese every game is just as bad as assuming your opponent is going to play a standard macro game. Play safe sure, but more importantly scout!, and play reactively based on what you scout.
Proxy gateways and cannon rushes are both terrible cheese. Cannon rush is less all in than proxy gateway for the reasons you listed, but even if you don't scout a cannon rush and lose your natural it is not an auto loss(especially in silver league), unlike an unscouted proxy gateway, they are two different flavors of cheddar.
Proxy gateways and cannon rushes are both terrible cheese. Cannon rush is less all in than proxy gateway for the reasons you listed, but even if you don't scout a cannon rush and lose your natural it is not an auto loss(especially in silver league), unlike an unscouted proxy gateway, they are two different flavors of cheddar.