Adventures with lyrical - buying a business

So Lyrical, I took your advice about reading Millionaire Next Door and the Millionaire Mind. I"ve read most of the first and the first half was pretty good, lots of info I hadn"t considered before but the next 1/4 of the book has all been about how rich people fuck over their kids by giving them money. It"s really wearing me down to finish the book. I swear I think they"ve made the same point 1000 times over: Don"t give your kids gifts or they"ll be on economic outpatient care (EOC) forever and always be under accumulators of wealth (UAW"s).

Hoping the rest of the book gets to another topic. I get it, teach your kids right or they"ll mooch off you forever...

Do you have kids and if so how are you doing with raising them to be PAW"s? (pro accumulators of wealth)

update on my situation -

CEO just had a general staff meeting where it was announced that iaw salary freezes going on in the federal government that base salaries across the company would be frozen for FY12.

said the normal BS about merit and promotions being an exception etc.

I"ve never felt so betrayed. In the past 2 months I have turned down 3 excellent opportunities because I had faith that this place was going to take care of me.

not saying that"s totally ruled out at the moment but they"re seriously going to give me a 30% raise when they"re not giving the bulk of the company anything? yeah I"m apparently naive but not that naive.

And its not that the VP doesn"t want to, its just thats not the way things work in the real world.

I almost made it back to my office before I lost it. sitting here with the door locked and trying to pull my ass together before my 3pm because its just a fucking job. I shouldn"t be this goddamned emotional and its pissing me off. (I rarely cry when I"m sad - I cry when I get really mad/frustrated so its like a fucking cycle I cry because I"m mad then I get mad at myself for crying then I cry more its like a giant pile of fail.).

keep building your pipeline, don"t take it personally.

edit:

VP just called up to my office about 5 mins after I posted. I played it totally cool for about the first 10 seconds then...

Him: "So a little bird told me you weren"t too happy with the meeting just now"

Me: "Sigh. Some little birds have big mouths."

Him: "Come down and see me."

Me: "Look I dont want to talk about it" (Yea the voice definitely cracked mid way through that sentence)

Him: "Just come down here"

Me: "Look goddammit I just stopped crying about this like 10 mins ago"

Him: "That general meeting didn"t apply to you there are going to be adjustments"

Me: "Seriously I don"t want to talk about this right now. I"m being an idiot right now I just need to be an idiot by myself on my own idiot island."

Him: "Well when you row the boat ashore I want you to come down here."

Me: "Fine".

Lyrical said:

That"s pretty big balls talking to your boss like that. Anyway, raises do happen when they are on freeze, I got a raise awhile back at my old company when everyone else"s was on hold. It can still happen, its just the odds go down now. And on the flip side, you can still be thankful you have a job with all of those people starving out there. There"s always a silver lining.

It can always be worse.

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he"s not my boss. he"s a VP I support but as previously mentioned he"s not my boss - if he was that would solve the problem because he"d be in a position to fix it (vice only a position to influence it). I"m not worried about getting a raise - I"m worried about what the market adjustment looks like.

((and also as previously mentioned he and I have this kind of relationship - that exchange is beyond vanilla)).

so I collected myself and went down a few hours later and had the adult conversation and he stated he was going to go back to the COO and see where things were.

I then got called into my boss" boss" office and received word that I was selected for an annual award/bonus (they don"t give everyone bonuses). boss" boss seemed to be laying on the expectation management thick and I wound up talking about some strategic issues for some business development stuff just as a "here"s whats going on " type thing - which I relayed back the VP and just replayed the conversation including the expectation management piece.

VP called me by the time I got home tonight - he went to the COO again and the COO was like "we"re not losing her, we"ll get this fixed."

Then when I started thanking the VP he told me to "stop being a sappy idiot and go have a glass of wine" and hung up.

Only women can get away with talking like that. I"d have 0 self respect for myself if I said anything remotely similar to that to my boss.

When I interviewed for my current job they promised me a promotion at the 1 year mark. Nearing the 1 year mark I start asking my boss what"s up with my promotion, he says he doesn"t know anything about it and starts investigating. Apparently they pulled the bait and switch on me and left it out of the original offer. Being unfamiliar with the rank structure here I overlooked it. My branch chief and the assistant both remembered the offer but they couldn"t override the asst division chief"s paper work.

Needless to say I was pissed off but this is a far better job. In a down economy when many of my peers were losing jobs I ended up with a $26k/year raise and better benefits in a better city. I"d be another 6 or 12k up from where I am now if I had that promotion but it"ll be here soon enough.

I voiced my irritation to my supervisors but I didn"t sound anything like that.

Is shit like that why women get paid less than men for the same position? If I was a manager and had to hear shit like that and baby a woman I"d be pissed off too.

Cathan said:

Only women can get away with talking like that. I"d have 0 self respect for myself if I said anything remotely similar to that to my boss.

When I interviewed for my current job they promised me a promotion at the 1 year mark. Nearing the 1 year mark I start asking my boss what"s up with my promotion, he says he doesn"t know anything about it and starts investigating. Apparently they pulled the bait and switch on me and left it out of the original offer. Being unfamiliar with the rank structure here I overlooked it. My branch chief and the assistant both remembered the offer but they couldn"t override the asst division chief"s paper work.

Needless to say I was pissed off but this is a far better job. In a down economy when many of my peers were losing jobs I ended up with a $26k/year raise and better benefits in a better city. I"d be another 6 or 12k up from where I am now if I had that promotion but it"ll be here soon enough.

I voiced my irritation to my supervisors but I didn"t sound anything like that.

Is shit like that why women get paid less than men for the same position? If I was a manager and had to hear shit like that and baby a woman I"d be pissed off too.

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no. women get paid less because they don"t assert themselves like men.

proven fact that women are far more likely to accept less because they don"t want to rock the boat or its a bad time - women are much more team player prone.

fact.

as for the rest - as I"ve said its a unique relationship (read back before updates for more info). this guy can call me at 10pm on a saturday with an 80% chance that I"ll pick up the phone. he tells me to fuck off I tell him the same. I get away with FAR more than his direct reports but its nothing to do with men vs women - I don"t report directly to him or up the chain or anything like that so I don"t have a subordinate relationship with the guy. my relationship with this guy is the chief reason that I want to stay where I"m at. we respect each other, we get shit done, we work hard. its actually a really fun time.

if I was this disrespectful cunt that required all of this coddling and baby sitting like you"re thinking is the case why would the guy go to his boss and make this happen? think about it. its hard to find competent people in my line of work yes but its not impossible. isn"t it FAR more likely that perhaps you"re not really listening when I say "this is a special case"? the guy, and his boss are C-level executives. why do they need that level of drama that you have it in your head is going on? if what you are saying was truly the case then it makes ZERO sense for them to be acting to coddle me. its "I"m really sorry about your situation, I"ll be a good reference" blah blah blah.....if I was high maintenance like that why keep someone around who is a continuous pain in the ass? you gotta remember that I also work with ex military every single day - ret. decently high ranking officers who have near zero tolerance for stupid drama.

he heard I was pissed off, it was out of character for me, he initiated the contact, I told him I didn"t want to be an emotional basket case that needed to be babied he said fine let me get myself together and we discussed it like adults. (see also my first post on this subject)

only an idiot thinks that people are never emotional. I got emotional, I went to a place to get myself unemotional - period. he knows when I need my ass kicked and this wasn"t one of those times. I was already beating myself up over getting emotional - him being a dick on top of that wasn"t going to make the situation better. I rarely, if ever lose my cool like that which is probably why he intervened. When someone who is fairly low maintenance, one of your best teammates, best performers and even keeled has an issue where their emotions are getting the best of them its not retarded to ask why.

"only an idiot thinks that people are never emotional. I got emotional, I went to a place to get myself unemotional - period. he knows when I need my ass kicked and this wasn"t one of those times. I was already beating myself up over getting emotional - him being a dick on top of that wasn"t going to make the situation better. I rarely, if ever lose my cool like that which is probably why he intervened. When someone who is fairly low maintenance, one of your best teammates, best performers and even keeled has an issue where their emotions are getting the best of them its not retarded to ask why."

Seems like I"m taking shots at you here but that"s really not my intention. The stuff you said in that quote... Even if I am good I never state things like that about myself out of simple modesty, or maybe I don"t want to get a big head and think myself up into being more important than I really am.

I guess your situation is unique for you the same as everyone else"s is unique to them. From your posts I may see it as unprofessional etc etc but whatever, just my stupid opinion. Good luck with your raise.

Cathan said:

"only an idiot thinks that people are never emotional. I got emotional, I went to a place to get myself unemotional - period. he knows when I need my ass kicked and this wasn"t one of those times. I was already beating myself up over getting emotional - him being a dick on top of that wasn"t going to make the situation better. I rarely, if ever lose my cool like that which is probably why he intervened. When someone who is fairly low maintenance, one of your best teammates, best performers and even keeled has an issue where their emotions are getting the best of them its not retarded to ask why."

Seems like I"m taking shots at you here but that"s really not my intention. The stuff you said in that quote... Even if I am good I never state things like that about myself out of simple modesty, or maybe I don"t want to get a big head and think myself up into being more important than I really am.

I guess your situation is unique for you the same as everyone else"s is unique to them. From your posts I may see it as unprofessional etc etc but whatever, just my stupid opinion. Good luck with your raise.

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*shrug* you may feel that way but you"re choosing to read shit in a vacuum. you cite the paragraph above but leave out the part where I say I can be replaced (ie "its hard to find COMPETENT (modest enough for you?) but its not impossible"). and then completely ignore what I"ve said about the things I put post as coming from OTHER people and that obviously this isn"t my opinion.

and thats after you went into a completely sexist sidebar. without reading the backstory. and then finishing with a parting "unprofessional" remark.

so yeah forgive me if I don"t see you as neutral as say lyrical for example. you complain about the way my posts are phrased (again reading them in part only) but then do it yourself. if its one thing you should know about me by now on these forums I"m not a huge fan of hypocrites. if it was just one of the above things you did in a vacuum that"s fine but don"t pretend I"m a complete moron oblivious to the passive agressive stunt you"re trying to pull here.

My safety officer and one of our journeyman got in to a yelling match one morning in the back shop. They had already had a couple run-ins before this. The journeyman threatened to kick his ass if the safety guy talked to him as he did again. Safety guy came in to my office all upset and nearly crying, told me what happened (or his version), and said he had to leave for the day because he was so upset. I said okay and he left. I got the story from a couple other people as well. No question the journeyman was in the wrong but it wasn"t as one sided as it sounds, and were he not the son of one of my project managers (who also has a temper), he"d have been fired.

The safety guy can be really annoying, not about safety, just personality wise and I"d gotten complaints from a lot of other people as well about him. Shit continued like this for another couple weeks until I sat them both down and told them that if they didn"t start behaving like fucking adults they would both be fired, that it wouldn"t be one or the other, and it would happen the next time I heard a peep about the two of them. They"ve since patched things up or at least are able to get along.

I lost a ton of respect for the safety guy. I mean I knew he was a pussy, but jeez, what a fucking baby.

Do not show emotion to your employer! I don"t want to know!

Etoille said:

you complain about the way my posts are phrased (again reading them in part only) but then do it yourself. if its one thing you should know about me by now on these forums I"m not a huge fan of hypocrites. if it was just one of the above things you did in a vacuum that"s fine but don"t pretend I"m a complete moron oblivious to the passive agressive stunt you"re trying to pull here.

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I don"t recall complaining about your writing style. I understand it, it"s not proper but I get the meaning quicker than standard sentence structure...

I didn"t intend any passive aggressive shit. That"s not my style and actually my intent was just to back off taking shots at you because though I didn"t agree with some things you said I don"t see you as a villain.

Since we"re on the topic though I"ll give you my real opinion on choosing whether to stay at a company or not.

Engineers are notoriously low paid out of college and I was no exception. I worked for a few years and learned quite a bit but when you do that learning at a company they don"t just all of a sudden feel like paying you what you"re worth. The only way to get paid what you"re worth is to get a new job, which is what I did.

If you want more money and you"re dead set on having it and ultimately no matter what fringe benefits a company offers you realize you won"t be happy... It"s time to find another job. I know I won"t find a better job than what I have now so I shut my mouth and be as happy as I can about it. The only way I can do better for myself is if I started my own company and now certainly isn"t the time to do it.

You can keep arguing with me if you want or accept what you posted was pretty damn whiny, you got called out, and move on. I"d hate to shit up this thread like the rest of the board...

Eomer: Doesn"t that hurt the company for you NOT to discipline an employee simply because he"s the son of a PM? Other employees see that. Maybe you could have solved the problem sooner.

Cathan said:

Eomer: Doesn"t that hurt the company for you NOT to discipline an employee simply because he"s the son of a PM? Other employees see that. Maybe you could have solved the problem sooner.

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It"s not a good situation, no. I was against hiring him to begin with, but my bro went ahead and did it anyway. They may both be on the way out this winter, we"ll see. But as far as that specific incident went, the safety officer had been goading and needling him for a couple weeks on some stuff (he"s just an annoying little creep, it"s the way he is) so he wasn"t blameless. But yeah, while fist fights used to be kosher, even in construction these days any clear threat of violence should be met with termination, no question.

Lyrical said:

This guy comes to work with tears in his eyes once a month.

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Yeah, similar story with my safety officer. He"s my age but it"s like I"m 20 years older or he"s 20 years younger. Dummy had a kid with some broad, broad is a total deadbeat, he"s now got custody but it was an ugly year or two for him to get there. The kid is also a raging hypochondriac (just like daddy!) and was missing a ton of school, meaning dad had to go pick him up and take the day off (he"s hourly so that simplifies things for the company). I feel bad for the guy, I genuinely do, but if you need a personal day just let me know. I don"t want the details, I don"t want you crying in my office.

Wrong thread probably but why did violence suddenly become so unacceptable? I"ve been in fights with people and afterward we usually respected each other more and often we ended up as friends.

I guess another way I think of it is: Why is it ok to fight in Hockey but not in most other sports? As a spectator I"d rather see guys beating the shit out of each other until the refs get control as entertainment value. It"d get rid of some of the pussies in some of the sports or they"d stop running their mouth so much... Could be the same thing at your company. If the safety nazi isn"t a little bitch he wouldn"t have problems with the guy maybe?

Cathan said:

Wrong thread probably but why did violence suddenly become so unacceptable? I"ve been in fights with people and afterward we usually respected each other more and often we ended up as friends.

I guess another way I think of it is: Why is it ok to fight in Hockey but not in most other sports? As a spectator I"d rather see guys beating the shit out of each other until the refs get control as entertainment value. It"d get rid of some of the pussies in some of the sports or they"d stop running their mouth so much... Could be the same thing at your company. If the safety nazi isn"t a little bitch he wouldn"t have problems with the guy maybe?

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With liability and just society in general changing, it"s not acceptable any more to settle things with a physical confrontation. Specifically for us we have a policy in our safety program about harassment, violence and so on and it"s pretty unequivocal that someone threatening violence ("I"m going to kick your ass!") is subject at least to suspension, if not immediate termination.

Funny you mention hockey. I"ve played beer league recreational hockey since I was 18. When I first started playing if you got in to a fight in most leagues (when both guys were willing) you were booted out of the game and that"s it. Then 5-7 years ago it became that you were gone for the following game too, or had to pay a fine to the league to play again. Now you"ll probably get a couple games off the bat, a fine, and if it happens again you"ll get banned from the league permanently.

Just the way things are going.

Eomer said:

Do not show emotion to your employer! I don"t want to know!

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Eh like I said I didn"t want to be emotional in that way in front of folks because I knew it was definitely bad timing/I was not being entirely rational in the specific instance above which is why I shut myself in my office - but I don"t think being 100% devoid of emotion is the way to go either.

People want to know other people are human. Compassionate, capable of making the same mistakes they do etc.

I"m very sarcastic but all business 99.9% of the time. Like one of the comments that still sticks out in my head from the guy who recruited me to where I"m at now when I told him I didn"t understand something was "it"s nice to know you"re bad at SOMETHING."

I find if you"re a robot or too perfect etc people don"t view you as someone that they can actually go to with issues. And while I don"t need/want to hear every little thing I do need to know, because of my job whats going on in peoples lives. If I"m pricing something and I know you"re unhappy at your job I need to be able to not just figure out what your cost means in the bigger picture but what the cost of replacing you, soon is. And I"m not saying I"m perfect - I make mistakes all the time which I own up to but there is a perception out there that I walk on water (to the point where I"ve fought to refuse "on the spot" type awards that I didn"t think I deserved) and that perception has created internal political issues where people don"t go to the person they should for things they go to me instead and then that creates dissention etc.

One of the things I need to do is to try and be more emotional in certain circumstances. I don"t hang out with people outside of work. That"s another thing that"s come back to me as a "thing that has created dissention".

TLDR - I know I"m not doing a good job of explaining this but while I agree that being emotional at work is a bad thing the overwhelming majority of the time, I think showing a human side is necessary as well in certain circumstances. Specific exception - violence. Think the whole "why is violence not ok" discussion after calling someone "in a non passive aggressive manner" whiny is pretty hilarious. Violence has absolutely no place in the workplace whatsoever.

But the pros can still duke it out at will? Seems like a double standard.

If people just fought with their fists I think that actually solves a lot of problems. For one, if people could throw down on the spot you work your differences out right there and so long as no one uses a weapon or kills the other person so be it... Solving problems on the spot instead of letting things build until someone possibly brings a gun is a lot better.

Lyrical: What would you do if 2 of your crew got into a fight and it wasn"t on a customer"s property but it was during working hours? If it were me, I think I"d let it go so long as they had worked it out and it wasn"t going to happen again.