Ancient Civilizations

Chukzombi · Jul 20, 2024

Burns said:
Watching this video on carving sandstone, using stone (from a channel @Bandwagon found in the Video thread) made me think of the Chucks following post. It seems to relate to other posts I've seen here too (whenever I parachute in):

So, of course, it made me do a quick search on this too:

View attachment 537705

Inca Quarrying and Stonecutting on JSTOR

Jean-Pierre Protzen, Inca Quarrying and Stonecutting, Journal of the Society of Architectural Historians, Vol. 44, No. 2 (May, 1985), pp. 161-182

www.jstor.org

Granite and Andesite are similar hardness:

no

Menkaure-goddesses-dynasty-sculpture-Egyptian-Museum-Cairo.jpg

Burns · Jul 20, 2024

Chukzombi said:
no

That video shows they can get very close to the final shape with stone tools alone. Carving stone just takes time, the tools dictate how long; rubbing 100s of bronze picks across a stone for a 1000 hours will leave a grove. There are theories the Egyptians (not the Inca/Maya) used sand between the metal tools and the granite, since sand silica is harder than granite.

Polishing the flat stone to fine precision sounds more like putting in the time to rub it smooth. Smoothing curved surfaces would be more difficult, but when you have 10s of thousands of people working on these projects, they should have plenty of manhours available to get it done.

Here is a documentary from before the internet on trying out bonze or copper with sand to cut granite:

Chukzombi · Jul 20, 2024

Burns said:
That video shows they can get very close to the final shape with stone tools alone. Carving stone just takes time, the tools dictate how long; rubbing 100s of bronze picks across a stone for a 1000 hours will leave a grove. There are theories the Egyptians (not the Inca/Maya) used sand between the metal tools and the granite, since sand silica is harder than granite.

Polishing the flat stone to fine precision sounds more like putting in the time to rub it smooth. Smoothing curved surfaces would be more difficult, but when you have 10s of thousands of people working on these projects, they should have plenty of manhours available to get it done.

Here is a documentary from before the internet on trying out bonze or copper with sand to cut granite:

just no. there are not 10s of thousands of precision artists working on this or at any time ever. the best you can hope for are tens of thousands of UNSKILLED day laborers or slaves working a piece with crude stones and maybe one artisan per project to get the measurements just right. these things are gargantuan in size and just one piece would take one artist many years or even decades. the precision and smoothness are whats important. you can hack away stones with many people but it would take a MASTER to shape something like those carving and there were many many of them.

Undine Rising Frome The Water by Chauncey Ives 1859. made of marble
Dimensions. 60 1/2 × 19 × 15 1/2 in. (153.7 × 48.3 × 39.4 cm)
one Master and it took him countless hours to carve this 5 foot tall sculpture out of marble which is softer than granite. with modern steel tools. each of those many many ancient egyptian masterpieces, some of them massive would have taken many lifetimes to accomplish. so i repeat, no. those carvings had to have been created in a more modern fashion. with tools egyptologists say they never had.

Burns · Jul 20, 2024

Chukzombi said:
just no. there are not 10s of thousands of precision artists working on this or at any time ever. the best you can hope for are tens of thousands of UNSKILLED day laborers or slaves working a piece with crude stones and maybe one artisan per project to get the measurements just right. these things are gargantuan in size and just one piece would take one artist many years or even decades. the precision and smoothness are whats important. you can hack away stones with many people but it would take a MASTER to shape something like those carving and there were many many of them.

Undine Rising Frome The Water by Chauncey Ives 1859. made of marble
Dimensions. 60 1/2 × 19 × 15 1/2 in. (153.7 × 48.3 × 39.4 cm)
one Master and it took him countless hours to carve this 5 foot tall sculpture out of marble which is softer than granite. with modern steel tools. each of those many many ancient egyptian masterpieces, some of them massive would have taken many lifetimes to accomplish. so i repeat, no. those carvings had to have been created in a more modern fashion. with tools egyptologists say they never had.

There is supposedly archaeological evidence of huge camps around the Pyramid constructions sites that could house 10s of thousands of people with layouts and sites that correspond to payed laborers, not slaves. If that is the case, then it would not be a stretch for 100s or 1000s of them to be highly skilled artisans that could move from project to project, as room allowed, to finish these monuments that the semi-skilled labor got roughly into shape, if that is what the Pharaoh needed. The amount of skilled labor was affected by the demand for them.

Chukzombi · Jul 20, 2024

Burns said:
There is supposedly archaeological evidence of huge camps around the Pyramid constructions sites that could house 10s of thousands of people with layouts and sites that correspond to payed laborers, not slaves. If that is the case, then it would not be a stretch for 100s or 1000s of them to be highly skilled artisans that could move from project to project, as room allowed, to finish these monuments that the semi-skilled labor got roughly into shape, if that is what the Pharaoh needed. The amount of skilled labor was affected by the demand for them.

Yes. Day laborers. But they also had slaves. These guys could be good workers. But think about it. These are people with good work ethics, but very primitive tools working a piece to extremely precise dimensions. Precise to a scale that is almost microscopically perfect. Pages back we were discussing the pottery pieces that were so perfect they could only be made with modern tech to a degree that they needed a lab to measure them. They found something like 40000 of those little jars. All almost perfect. Without the use of a lathe because these jars had ears. They also found drill holes that nobody can explain. No, I am not saying aliens did it. I am saying that this or another ancient civ before them had shit we didn't know about. Nothing magical, just stuff we haven't thought of. Perhaps some kind of acids or maybe geopolymers that were made fitted into a mold and plopped out. Or maybe they had steel tools four or five thousand years ago. It's such a a long time in the deep past that maybe they had stone sawing machines like the Romans had. They got the idea from somewhere.

Burns · Jul 20, 2024

Chukzombi said:
Yes. Day laborers. But they also had slaves. These guys could be good workers. But think about it. These are people with good work ethics, but very primitive tools working a piece to extremely precise dimensions. Precise to a scale that is almost microscopically perfect. Pages back we were discussing the pottery pieces that were so perfect they could only be made with modern tech to a degree that they needed a lab to measure them. They found something like 40000 of those little jars. All almost perfect. Without the use of a lathe because these jars had ears. They also found drill holes that nobody can explain. No, I am not saying aliens did it. I am saying that this or another ancient civ before them had shit we didn't know about. Nothing magical, just stuff we haven't thought of. Perhaps some kind of acids or maybe geopolymers that were made fitted into a mold and plopped out. Or maybe they had steel tools four or five thousand years ago. It's such a a long time in the deep past that maybe they had stone sawing machines like the Romans had. They got the idea from somewhere.

Day laborers are dudes you pick up at Home Depot, these were just laborers that worked with stone day in and day out for decades. It's not like the bosses weren't sure they needed them to move and cut stone tomorrow, or the next day, or the next day, etc. In a 50+ year monumental project, it wouldn't take very long for the same people doing the same job (cutting stones) to become semi-skilled at it. The skilled stone carvers would then have a huge pool of people to take in as apprentices to fill the quotas the Pharaoh is demanding of them.

As for slaves, last I remember reading was that there is little evidence that there was widespread slavery at the construction camps/villages of the Pyramids. Reading about archaeology and anthropology usually put me to sleep though, so didn't look into it any farther.

I know this thread is all about speculating on ancient civilizations which there is no direct evidence of, but I will refrain from taking them very seriously until something more concrete surfaces. Dismissing people out right, that demonstrate possible ways they achieved such things with the tools they had available, also seems rather silly.

Somewhat related, since you mentioned the stone jars, I saw this earlier, but didn't seem relevant. Some Russian woman made a video of her process of making a stone pot, using stone to shape it:

Lenardo · Jul 21, 2024

She used a lathe.........Primitive but a lathe.

Ukerric · Jul 21, 2024

Burns said:
As for slaves, last I remember reading was that there is little evidence that there was widespread slavery at the construction camps/villages of the Pyramids. Reading about archaeology and anthropology usually put me to sleep though, so didn't look into it any farther.

The Pyramids being built by slaves is basically a Hollywood myth.

The truth is that the peasants had nothing to do during the flood season, and idle peasants are dangerous, so they got mobilized into those projects (be it temples, palaces, or pyramids) for a couple months before being let go to work their fields again. For the glory of the Pharaoh, of course, so that might feel a little bit like part-time slavery. You had a core of full-time workers, but every flood season, workers would flock to the site, work, and then go back.

Chukzombi · Jul 21, 2024

Ukerric said:
The Pyramids being built by slaves is basically a Hollywood myth.

The truth is that the peasants had nothing to do during the flood season, and idle peasants are dangerous, so they got mobilized into those projects (be it temples, palaces, or pyramids) for a couple months before being let go to work their fields again. For the glory of the Pharaoh, of course, so that might feel a little bit like part-time slavery. You had a core of full-time workers, but every flood season, workers would flock to the site, work, and then go back.

Certain workers had their own housing on site, but that's not to say they didn't have slaves. You don't need to pay a slave to move shit around . The only people you would need to keep around are the stone cutters and the guys putting the cut blocks in their final positions. Due to the way the great pyramid was constructed it was important to get the angles just right or you would end up with a fucked up angle like the bent pyramid.

Of course the question is, did the pyramids get built in those 30 years or did they simply repair it and add the casing stones with the gold cap on top? The pyramid were said to be built in thirty years and again it's simply inconceivable for that many fifty ton blocks to be cut and moved into position in such a short time and then add the casing stones. But that's what supposedly happened , 5000 years ago.

Daidraco · Jul 21, 2024

How indoctrinated do you have to be to think that slaves werent used during these projects? Seriously? Slavery was wide spread thousands of years ago and the cultures may or may not have treated them like Americanized slaves. To say that it was some "Hollywood Myth" is purely buying into the narrative. Just as that dumb fuck above saying that Mayans used Mitayos to do the work and that they were "workers for the state" or how when you look up the word, they are referred to - in a similar vein to how slaves are described in Egypt's prime - Conscripted, or Drafted <Insert race/culture here and not nationality>. Just because there were different caste's of slaves does not mean that the top ranking house nog nog wasnt a fkn slave.

As far as how skilled they were? Obviously slaves were skilled. Romans, Egyptians, Vikings, ... all the way up to Americanized Slaves, were trained in how to perform skilled labor. It was worth it for their owner to spend the time training his slaves so that they would make him more money, and in turn, he would treat that slave as a higher ranking slave in hopes of keeping him happy. We have proof of this from every single major civilization that had slaves. If you want to read about it, or get more proof, you only need to look at the Roman's to avoid any double speak since the literal fucking narrative is "Only white people are racist."

As for carving fucking statues and shit out of basic tools? I sure as fuck dont believe in Aliens - at least not the idea that some aliens from billions of light years away is helping little "pi'ka'bu'boo" carve a fucking statue of another mud skin. As for tools lost to time? Its possible. Who the fuck knows. But its way more believable that the peasantry was forced (some call this slavery) to do stonework every fucking year between forced (some call this slavery) harvests. They MIGHT pick up a fucking skill between the two since they obviously werent reading books, or looking at the internet.

Burns · Jul 21, 2024

Daidraco said:
How indoctrinated do you have to be to think that slaves werent used during these projects? Seriously? Slavery was wide spread thousands of years ago and the cultures may or may not have treated them like Americanized slaves. To say that it was some "Hollywood Myth" is purely buying into the narrative. Just as that dumb fuck above saying that Mayans used Mitayos to do the work and that they were "workers for the state" or how when you look up the word, they are referred to - in a similar vein to how slaves are described in Egypt's prime - Conscripted, or Drafted <Insert race/culture here and not nationality>. Just because there were different caste's of slaves does not mean that the top ranking house nog nog wasnt a fkn slave.

As far as how skilled they were? Obviously slaves were skilled. Romans, Egyptians, Vikings, ... all the way up to Americanized Slaves, were trained in how to perform skilled labor. It was worth it for their owner to spend the time training his slaves so that they would make him more money, and in turn, he would treat that slave as a higher ranking slave in hopes of keeping him happy. We have proof of this from every single major civilization that had slaves. If you want to read about it, or get more proof, you only need to look at the Roman's to avoid any double speak since the literal fucking narrative is "Only white people are racist."

As for carving fucking statues and shit out of basic tools? I sure as fuck dont believe in Aliens - at least not the idea that some aliens from billions of light years away is helping little "pi'ka'bu'boo" carve a fucking statue of another mud skin. As for tools lost to time? Its possible. Who the fuck knows. But its way more believable that the peasantry was forced (some call this slavery) to do stonework every fucking year between forced (some call this slavery) harvests. They MIGHT pick up a fucking skill between the two since they obviously werent reading books, or looking at the internet.

People use a wide definition of slavery, so of course you can call a yearly debt of work, by the peasants, to the Pharaoh, slavery. Just like people today call working for "the man" wage slavery.

There are certainly different types of slavery. For example, some slavery has the ability for the slave to work their way into a society/freedom and show that they can assimilate, and some are slaves for life along with all children they make.

Saying slaves did not build the pyramids is not saying slavery didn't exist in Egypt at the time, it's saying that the archeological evidence in the camps in which the pyramid workers lived matched, more closely, that of the "free" peasant class, and not the living conditions of similar slave quarters found elsewhere of the time. The shear amount of people needed means that it would have been difficult to house that many slaves, and not have evidence of their housing. Furthermore, Egypt was fairly contained nation for a long time, in which they could not expand to bring in masses of slaves that would be needed to build such huge monuments.

Also, I think there is a lot of Roman slavery methods that get conflated with other slavery methods around the Mediterranean, especially when one remembers that we live closer in time to Cesar, than he lived to when the pyramids were built.

Chukzombi · Jul 21, 2024

Burns said:
People use a wide definition of slavery, so of course you can call a yearly debt of work, by the peasants, to the Pharaoh, slavery. Just like people today call working for "the man" wage slavery. There are certainly different types of slavery. For example, some slavery has the ability for the slave to work their way into a society/freedom and show that they can assimilate, and some are slaves for life along with all children they make.

Saying slaves did not build the pyramids is not saying slavery didn't exist in Egypt at the time, it's saying that the archeological evidence in the camps in which the pyramid workers lived matched, more closely, that of the "free" peasant class, and not the living conditions of similar slave quarters found elsewhere of the time. Furthermore, Egypt was fairly contained nation for a long time, in which they could not expand to bring in masses of slaves that would be needed to build such huge monuments.

I think there is a lot of Roman slavery methods that get conflated with other slavery methods around the Mediterranean, especially when one remembers that we live closer in time to Cesar, than he lived to when the pyramids were built.

the pyramid workers had their own camp/village in front of the pyramid job site. but only the paid contractors. the rest were shit tier slaves whose only skills were hard work and moving 50 ton blocks on and off boats and sledges

Burns · Jul 21, 2024

Chukzombi said:
the pyramid workers had their own camp/village in front of the pyramid job site. but only the paid contractors. the rest were shit tier slaves whose only skills were hard work and moving 50 ton blocks on and off boats and sledges

They still had to be housed somewhere, do you propose they all slept on boats, to die in the yearly floods, or something?

MusicForFish · Jul 21, 2024

It would be nice if they at least gave us some of the data on the Sahara Lidar scans. Keeping the looters away is such a shitty excuse. It's easy to omit the /loc.

Chukzombi · Jul 21, 2024

Burns said:
They still had to be housed somewhere, do you propose they all slept on boats, to die in the yearly floods, or something?

yeah, they're called huts. and since they werent part of the actual building of the pyramids but just offloading shit to the cranes and derricks of the time ,it was not necessary to build them any permanent structures.

Burns · Jul 21, 2024

Chukzombi said:
yeah, they're called huts. and since they werent part of the actual building of the pyramids but just offloading shit to the cranes and derricks of the time ,it was not necessary to build them any permanent structures.

Huts, cooking fires, eating plates/bowls, and other logistical support still leave archeological evidence. Large numbers of slaves are going to also need guards and ways to keep them from running away. They don't need to be stone and mud walled building, and I doubt most were.

Chukzombi · Jul 21, 2024

Burns said:
Huts, cooking fires, eating plates/bowls, and other logistical support still leave archeological evidence. Large numbers of slaves are going to also need guards and ways to keep them from running away. They don't need to be stone and mud walled building, and I doubt most were.

There was a preexisting causeway where the blocks were moved from the Nile. It's not dirt. When a homeless encampment is swept by the cops they don't leave a trace because it's all paved and shit just gets washed away. There is also a "lost city" where the paid workers lived. It's not that big. Maybe housing 500 men or less.

The-workers-village-at-the-Giza-Pyramid-site-Foley-2001.jpg

Burns · Jul 21, 2024

Chukzombi said:
There was a preexisting causeway where the blocks were moved from the Nile. It's not dirt. When a homeless encampment is swept by the cops they don't leave a trace because it's all paved and shit just gets washed away. There is also a "lost city" where the paid workers lived. It's not that big. Maybe housing 500 men or less.

So you are saying they went through the trouble of paving a large area to then put the lowest rung of their society on (slaves), then every so often they would come by and clear them out instead of building more permanent structures over 30 or more years? Also, that the paved area was large enough to house over 9,500 slaves, since only 500 men were paid laborers and the lowest estimate of men working on the pyramids is 10,000. Additionally, that there would be zero evidence of those 9500 men residing there for 30+ years because it all got washed away?

Chukzombi · Jul 21, 2024

Burns said:
So you are saying they went through the trouble of paving a large area to then put the lowest rung of their society on (slaves), then every so often they would come by and clear them out instead of building more permanent structures over 30 or more years? Also, that the paved area was large enough to house over 9,500 slaves, since only 500 men were paid laborers and the lowest estimate of men working on the pyramids is 10,000. Additionally, that there would be zero evidence of those 9500 men residing there for 30+ years because it all got washed away?

no, dude. those are the causeways to the pyramids used to offload the fifty ton granite stones shipped or dragged from Aswan. the slaves just slept where they work. nobody gives two shits about them. they are expendable. when the job is done, they push the shit out of the way.

Burns · Jul 21, 2024

Chukzombi said:
no, dude. those are the causeways to the pyramids used to offload the fifty ton granite stones shipped or dragged from Aswan. the slaves just slept where they work. nobody gives two shits about them. they are expendable. when the job is done, they push the shit out of the way.

Slaves were not that expendable, they would have provided them shelter and the certainly had to feed them (which means a huge logistical support network). Egypt didn't have places to just go capture large amounts of replacement slaves. They had deserts to the east, deserts to the west, water to the north, and easily defended rough terrain to the south that was continually held by a less than friendly foreign state.

Ancient Civilizations

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