Ashes of Creation

Neranja · May 12, 2021

Mahes said:
If you get bored with the game, you log out?

This is a very goal-oriented view, basically the "Achiever" in the Bartle taxonomy of player types. People very rarely fall into a single category, at least not all the time.

People sometimes play games because they are bored and want to be entertained.

Lumi · May 12, 2021

etchazz said:
I don't know why PvP is always seen as something good in a MMO. It has never been implemented into any game that I can think of that it was actually fun. Maybe vanilla WoW, but even then the class imbalances were insane. It always sounds great that they'll let you create cities that can be sieged by other guilds, but it just turns into a shit show and is never fun. Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 come to mind as games that were built around PvP, and they sucked.

Age of Conan was definitely the best PvP mmo and it was done decently well. The problem is it's really hard to make a game that has both great pvp and pve while also curbing griefing.

mkopec · May 12, 2021

I liked PvP in Shadowbane, especially when I went back a few years later. Because lets face it, the shit was broken at launch, lol. But when me and my brother checked it out a few years later it was fun as hell for a while. Awesome character builds, no OP gear or anything like that. Fights over resources, runes and the best PvE leveling spots, and some sieges here and there, but the real fun was the rivalry between nations on the server, Japs VS China, China vs US and Euros, etc... The game had some really cool class/race/rune combos and builds you could make too.

Mahes · May 12, 2021

etchazz said:
I don't know why PvP is always seen as something good in a MMO. It has never been implemented into any game that I can think of that it was actually fun. Maybe vanilla WoW, but even then the class imbalances were insane. It always sounds great that they'll let you create cities that can be sieged by other guilds, but it just turns into a shit show and is never fun. Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 come to mind as games that were built around PvP, and they sucked.

There have been a few games built around PvP that have done just fine. PvP games tend to be more niche than general public. AoC is not going to be the next Blizzard game with 7+ million subs. I am not sure any game will ever do that again. I do not see AoC killing World of Warcraft. I do think that AoC could see 1 million subs, as there are a lot of players who would enjoy a siege like format with a PvP world base, if done correctly. Dark Ages of Camelot did just fine for a good period of time. Eve Online does fine. I would love to play EvE, but do not enjoy a space based game very much. I am kind of hoping that AoC will be like an EvE online with a fantasy setting.

Barab · May 12, 2021

My best and most memorable mmo experiences have been pvp encounters from the zeks in eq, to DAOc to Shadowbane to darkfall to albion online so on.

Grim1 · May 12, 2021

Didn't buy the alpha. Decided to use that cash towards a new 4k tv instead.

Kirun · May 12, 2021

Barab said:
My best and most memorable mmo experiences have been pvp encounters from the zeks in eq, to DAOc to Shadowbane to darkfall to albion online so on.

Same.

There are a few PvE memories here and there, but that's mostly due to the people and the funny/interesting chats versus any real gameplay.

Virtually all of the "gameplay" memories I have from MMOs revolve around PvP in some way, shape, or form. PvP centric MMOs are fine, but in order to make PvP work in MMOs it ultimately has to be centered around fighting over scarcity. The best grind spots, raid spots, resources, crafting mats, whatever. PvP for PvP's sake rarely works in MMO form, in my opinion. Sure, bragging rights and dick measuring contests can be fun, but I'll just go play a MOBA or FPS for that.

Give players reasons to fight.

Cybsled · May 12, 2021

PvP MMO players tend to be the most transient MMO Playerbase. The dopamine hits for PvP and PvE are different.

Lithose · May 12, 2021

Mahes said:
You know there is PVP in the game. The game is centered around guilds forming to create cities that can be sieged by other guilds/alliances. The game is very group oriented. Not sure why you think having the ability to draw dicks adds to how the actual game functions. If you get bored with the game, you log out? I disagree that having the ability to drop items onto the grounds, adds that much playability to the game as to cure the boredom of the rest of the game. What it does add is the potential for players to abuse the system in ways that take away Dev time to deal with. In the end, this most likely is not the game for you, if you honestly have not done enough research to understand that this game is far away from a single player game.

This is part of the problem though. (Not dropping things exactly, but he's on the right vein) You're allowed to group...and engage with others in precisely the manner we have designed the game system to allow 'fun for'. No fun outside of the design is allowed, please stay seated until the fun comes to a precise, calculated end.

Developers today try to control too much. Which makes their games exactly what he says....Poorer quality single player games that you can play online.

Players need to be frustrated to deepen their interactions, and form friendships. If you put everything on rails, then once players learn the pattern and defeat it--your game is boring. Trying to control too much is every modern MMOs downfall, imo.

Uriel · May 12, 2021

Lithose nailed it with the control vs. freedom thing (which is playing out everywhere these days, not just MMOs). I'll just copy what I wrote on the AoC reddit about pvp in MMOs -

If they want the pvp, and the game itself, to have depth and longevity, combat mechanics need to feel really good and there needs to be a high skill ceiling, with an emphasis on tactics and creativity over gear and levels. Every game that makes pvp all about gear over skill (Most Korean games, gacha games, etc), has pretty much failed and either lost its western audience or not lived up to the potential it has, whether its P2W or not. EVE nails this better than most MMOs, in that gear (ships and mods) gives you an advantage but you're also risking whatever you use, and in the hands of an unskilled player you're just throwing away money.

That doesn't mean AoC has to do a full loot system, but there needs to be risk vs. reward for everything. This kind of system where tactics and creativity and skill matter opens things up for different size groups to shine, from solo to small parties, guilds and big factions. Again this goes back to EVE, where its history is littered with famous names of solo players, small elite pvp groups, and big alliances. Create a good system and mechanics and let the creative players use them to do things you haven't even imagined, and instead of taking things away because they're not playing the way you want them to, look at what they're doing and enable more possibilities for that kind of creativity, and counters to metas if need be.

You can go fast paced like BDO or slower paced like a lot of the fighting sim type games, or something in between, it all can work as long as the mechanics are good and allow player freedom and options. Action combat is great because it adds another level of skill to things, and it can be done in such a way where different playstyles (some fast and stinging, some slow but powerful) can shine instead of everyone needing godlike reflexes and hand/eye coordination, allowing all types of players to find their style and niche.

Creslin · May 12, 2021

Uriel said:
Lithose nailed it with the control vs. freedom thing (which is playing out everywhere these days, not just MMOs). I'll just copy what I wrote on the AoC reddit about pvp in MMOs -

If they want the pvp, and the game itself, to have depth and longevity, combat mechanics need to feel really good and there needs to be a high skill ceiling, with an emphasis on tactics and creativity over gear and levels. Every game that makes pvp all about gear over skill (Most Korean games, gacha games, etc), has pretty much failed and either lost its western audience or not lived up to the potential it has, whether its P2W or not. EVE nails this better than most MMOs, in that gear (ships and mods) gives you an advantage but you're also risking whatever you use, and in the hands of an unskilled player you're just throwing away money.

That doesn't mean AoC has to do a full loot system, but there needs to be risk vs. reward for everything. This kind of system where tactics and creativity and skill matter opens things up for different size groups to shine, from solo to small parties, guilds and big factions. Again this goes back to EVE, where its history is littered with famous names of solo players, small elite pvp groups, and big alliances. Create a good system and mechanics and let the creative players use them to do things you haven't even imagined, and instead of taking things away because they're not playing the way you want them to, look at what they're doing and enable more possibilities for that kind of creativity, and counters to metas if need be.

You can go fast paced like BDO or slower paced like a lot of the fighting sim type games, or something in between, it all can work as long as the mechanics are good and allow player freedom and options. Action combat is great because it adds another level of skill to things, and it can be done in such a way where different playstyles (some fast and stinging, some slow but powerful) can shine instead of everyone needing godlike reflexes and hand/eye coordination, allowing all types of players to find their style and niche.

The brilliance of the EVE pvp system was that in a classless system where you are slowly building up a character you can have the sort of rock paper scissor balancing that lets you create roles for newer, under geared player. You could be a cruiser pilot in a week and get some kind of tackling role in PVP, all while being on the path to eventually going to a battleship and joining a long range fleet, and you could branch off to different roles at many points like interdictor pilots that took a few months of keep working on the battleship path and eventually up to a dread. It also meant that a character who specialized in small group combat had an advantage over even big alliances who were set up to fight set piece battles against other big slow opponents. I think that is why we saw the original titan nerf, they were set to make everything except capitals useless in fleet battles.

Games that reward twitch skill too much also tend to fail, partially because it is tough to overcome the hacking problem, EVE was a hard game to hack which I think really helped them. They should have some options that are slow but tactical and some that are faster paced for people who like different play styles.

I don't think AOC is really going for the above kind of system though which worries me. I think they will lose a lot of players just because being low level and getting destroyed over and over again while being totally useless just isn't fun.

Cybsled · May 12, 2021

Right, it always gets back to the "everyone wants to be the wolf, not the sheep". Once most of the playerbase realizes they will always be the sheep, they will stop playing.

Uriel · May 12, 2021

I like the idea of having opportunities for people of all skill levels. Using EVE as an example, the best of the best are gonna be in the elite pvp corps, flying solo or in small gangs, the good players will mostly be flying small gang too, and the mediocre to bad ones will be engaging in larger fleet battles, the pawns of the big powers. And ya the time it took to build up a character in EVE and being able to branch off on different paths or take detours was fun, and let the game grow nicely over time.

For AoC we really don't know enough to say right now. I'm expecting a lot of grinds, deep tradeskill systems which are necessary for and interact with the node system and gear, and guild/alliance politics. How they're gonna handle gear is a huge unknown, whether its more disposable stuff like EVE or a big grind and money sink like Archeage / other KR mmos. I really hope they're leaning more towards EVE type gear, where the best stuff has significant power advantages but also risk of damage or loss, where you might save the best stuff for a siege or something.

Kirun · May 12, 2021

Creslin said:
Games that reward twitch skill too much also tend to fail, partially because it is tough to overcome the hacking problem, EVE was a hard game to hack which I think really helped them. They should have some options that are slow but tactical and some that are faster paced for people who like different play styles.

I don't think AOC is really going for the above kind of system though which worries me. I think they will lose a lot of players just because being low level and getting destroyed over and over again while being totally useless just isn't fun.

"Twitch" MMOs tend to fail because most of the people still playing this genre are boomers. The younger generations barely even pay attention to this genre and are instead focused on MOBAs, mobile, etc.

They blame this on the design, lag, gameplay, etc., but it mostly comes down to poor reflexes and people who are stuck in "their ways" or reliving the "good 'ole days".

Cybsled · May 13, 2021

Twitch MMOs would be more in the vein of something like BDO or TERA - action combat that requires far too many hot key presses and is virtually impossible to be a "clicker" in it. I never liked BDO much because combat felt like you had to be constantly moving and activating 20+ hotkeys at the same time to be effective. Clicking in that was impossible, but the amount of active abilities requiring hotkey presses on the fly made it unwieldy.

Daidraco · May 13, 2021

Cybsled said:
Twitch MMOs would be more in the vein of something like BDO or TERA - action combat that requires far too many hot key presses and is virtually impossible to be a "clicker" in it. I never liked BDO much because combat felt like you had to be constantly moving and activating 20+ hotkeys at the same time to be effective. Clicking in that was impossible, but the amount of active abilities requiring hotkey presses on the fly made it unwieldy.

I rarely click anything in any mmo anymore, so I dont quite follow. But BDO just overwhelms you with abilities back to back to back when you start leveling and that to me is what made it really overwhelming. Its one of those things you gotta power through, or watch a handful of youtube videos to dissect, I guess?

Pyros · May 13, 2021

Daidraco said:
I rarely click anything in any mmo anymore, so I dont quite follow. But BDO just overwhelms you with abilities back to back to back when you start leveling and that to me is what made it really overwhelming. Its one of those things you gotta power through, or watch a handful of youtube videos to dissect, I guess?

Yeah it was really shit, I picked up BDO a few weeks ago to try it again, and the way they do skills is absolutely fucking terrible. They frontload most of the skills, and not only that but the skills have input commands(like Shift+F or back+RMB or whatever) and you can't change these, nor display them easily to remember them. So it's literally just spending time learning the class, reopening the skill menu every now and then to check if you haven't forgotten any skills and getting use to all the commands for them. And then you have to parse which ones are actually worth using, cause a bunch are also complete fucking trash so you never end up using them. And then you get Flow abilities(stuff that follows the previous skills) and you have to remember these as well, as then you get to 56 and you get awakening/succession and now you get another batch of like 8-10skills at once and it's confusing as fuck again(or in some cases simpler, like some awakening classes you just cut out all the previous skills and just learn a few new ones and that's it).

Once you work through it, most of it is pretty straightforward I thought and you end up with a small amount of skills in a cycle and stuff, but it's still horribly confusing when you start(even just starting a new classes, not just as a new player) with how fast you level and how you get most of your skills early on with little time to actually test them and no way to memorize them easily(they have a fucking skill guide thing that shows input, but only of some arbitrarily selected skills, for whatever fucking dumbass reason).

I don't know how they ended with this system, there's so many improvements they could make to it. Once you know the class it's fine but the barrier of entry on new classes is unnecessarily high. Also they're not very consistent, so like some classes have their dashes on Shift and others on RMB and so on, it's dumb dumb. DFO had similar inputs but at least you could rebind everything. Didn't like Down+LMB for your smash? Could make it V. It's such a simple fix but BDO doesn't do that. Or allow you to use a bunch of the keys for keybindings either. Or use a 3rd party to rebind keys without potentially flagging their anticheat, so you're kinda out of luck.

Once you get into it though the combat is great, honestly better than most single player games you'll play even.

etchazz · May 14, 2021

The problem is, in order to have a game like EVE, the developers/publishers pretty much have to make the game, then not intercede at all, and allow the players to do whatever the fuck they want. That is so rare in today's gaming world, I just don't see that happening. I predict it'll be more of, "I'm not having fun, people keep ganking me, your games sucks. Fix it, or I want a refund."

Leibowitz · May 17, 2021

news Flash!!!!! verbal NDA lifted!!!!! link :
@everyone Good Afternoon Glorious Ashes Community. Today I have made the decision to release our current Alpha One Testers from their verbal NDA over all prior Alpha One Preview testing, and future testing. The visual NDA shall remain in place until July. I have made this decision so that the community may discuss the experiences had, and progress made with the Ashes project, in anticipation of the full NDA release in July. Of course, It's important to note, that the Alpha One experience is not meant to be a content test. But rather, standing up core systems in their bare bones state and vetting our technical architectures, while providing the opportunity for us to optimize and squash bugs. Hope you enjoy the conversation. Keep it constructive! Much to you all, and especially our testers!(edited)

Leibowitz · May 17, 2021

I have been just WAITING for this!!!!!! Now.. i can tell you about the total lack of loading screens between zones!!! Intrepid is giving us exactly what it promised,
a massive truly OPEN world!!!!!

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