Black Desert

Pyros said:

To be fair the controls could be better. Unless they changed them since last time I played, but one thing I really disliked is you couldn't change anything. If the devs decided your movement skill is Shift forward or Back F or whatever, then that's that. They should let you rebind stuff as you want, even if you have to keep using commands.

DFO, another korean game that has this type of commands lets you rebind everything as you want(well to an extent). You can make shortcuts with any amount of directions(being a 2D game it works ok with fighting game inputs like shoryuken and stuff not just single directions) and with the skill 1, skill 2, jump and basic attack buttons(which you can rebind to any key). On top of that you can put almost everything on the bars(BDO had much more limited actions being hotkeyable). They reward you for using the commands over the buttons by having a little cooldown bonus though, and some gear sets are built around using command inputs only(usually being the highest damage output tiers to compensate for the added trouble).

I don't think it'd be impossible for BDO to let you rebind everything to a different command, so you can unify class skills based on your own preference(all movement skills are this combination, 2nd movement that and so on). It would likely be a lot of work on the UI and possibly the code for commands is actually some spaghetti shit that's hard to change keys for, so I could see it being low priority, but I distinctly remember hating some skills just because of how annoying they were to hit in my normal flow.

Click to expand...

What's the difference if the input is S + RMB or you rebind it to Shift + F? The input requires the same amount of input presses. You're mad at the GAME because you can't do the inputs properly/comfortably? Did you try another class with different mobility inputs? Did you try putting them on your hotbar? Did you change your keyboard settings in software and setup a profile so that down + F becomes shift + F while playing BDO? There are solutions.

People who bitch about BDO's inputs are either unable/unwilling to learn said input or what they are REALLY asking for is a way to macro/autohotkey/automate shit.

Pyros said:

It doesn't help that they've seemingly abandonned a lot of their side content stuff over the years or just slap kinda band aid fixes on them(bartering or trading, and most lifeskilling in general lagging behind and being just worse than grinding mobs in the current state).

Click to expand...

Bartering T5 items are getting a 50% buff in another patch or two. It still won't make bartering TOP TIER!!!, but it'll improve it a decent chunk. I don't understand why people think an activity that can be done 75% afk deserves to be worth the same amount of silver/hour as somebody actively playing the game? Bartering is braindead easy and there's no way it should be worth 1b+ silver/hour. After the buff, it'll probably clock in somewhere around 300m/hour or so, if I had to guess on rough napkin math. That's an insane amount of silver for something that can be done almost entirely afk, considering even a mid-tier grind spot like Biraghi Den pulls around 350-400m/hour on a blue loot scroll.

As far as the rest, you clearly haven't played since they added the gathering mini-games in LotML. Hunting can pulling 1b+ silver/hour now, even inching toward 1.5b. Lifeskills are in an insane spot considering how "low effort" they are. The only difficult part being the amount of silver investment it takes with manos, but the payoff is massive.

Kirun said:

What's the difference if the input is S + RMB or you rebind it to Shift + F? The input requires the same amount of input presses. You're mad at the GAME because you can't do the inputs properly/comfortably? Did you try another class with different mobility inputs? Did you try putting them on your hotbar? Did you change your keyboard settings in software and setup a profile so that down + F becomes shift + F while playing BDO? There are solutions.

People who bitch about BDO's inputs are either unable/unwilling to learn said input or what they are REALLY asking for is a way to macro/autohotkey/automate shit.

Bartering T5 items are getting a 50% buff in another patch or two. It still won't make bartering TOP TIER!!!, but it'll improve it a decent chunk. I don't understand why people think an activity that can be done 75% afk deserves to be worth the same amount of silver/hour as somebody actively playing the game? Bartering is braindead easy and there's no way it should be worth 1b+ silver/hour. After the buff, it'll probably clock in somewhere around 300m/hour or so, if I had to guess on rough napkin math. That's an insane amount of silver for something that can be done almost entirely afk, considering even a mid-tier grind spot like Biraghi Den pulls around 350-400m/hour on a blue loot scroll.

As far as the rest, you clearly haven't played since they added the gathering mini-games in LotML. Hunting can pulling 1b+ silver/hour now, even inching toward 1.5b. Lifeskills are in an insane spot considering how "low effort" they are. The only difficult part being the amount of silver investment it takes with manos, but the payoff is massive.

Click to expand...

The problem with bartering is you start min-maxing it. I'd rather do Margoria barters because you take a tier 4 and get double what a normal tier 5 would give (currently 10m vs 5m). But you can't really afk barter Margoria (you'll miss the node, or end up dying to a fucking ghost ship). And then you're also limited to how many you can do per day.

Hmm if I had nothing to use the 2 jammers on atm. Worth it just to buy a tri or if I could a tet of something, use a 150 advice and the hungers(that expire same time as jhammers), just to maybe get a chance at success or a high FS going. Or just let them all poof.

Pyros said:

You haven't even managed to come up with a single argument as why it's a good thing that you can't change it

Click to expand...

Because the inputs are specifically designed around the flow/feel of the particular class. You're unwilling/unable to learn that specific classes movement, combos, etc. and you're pissed that Pearl Abyss doesn't allow you to turn your warrior into a mage, essentially. The inputs are specific to the class, that's the whole point. Otherwise, everybody would just change their inputs to be braindead easy and now suddenly there's basically zero difference between classes and the meta becomes even more retarded, because now it's just about which classes abilities hit hardest/fire fastest/etc. Queue 500,000 Awakened Nova players the next day, because she's the best grinder and the only thing that keeps her "in check" is player skill - which is tied to inputs. If that input is suddenly no longer a factor? Enjoy a game where people just constantly class swap to FotM bullshit even more than they already do.

There actually DOES exist away around this in 2023 due to keyboard/mouse software, but yet again...you're unwilling/unable to engage with this method and somehow that's also Pearl Abyss' fault. Sounds like a skill/effort issue to me.

Pyros said:

Yes I saw bartering changes and yes it might be ok now after the changes, but that took what, 1year or more for them to just tweak a number to be higher so it's worth doing? Hunting(and I'm guessing Cooking for its afk counterpart) are good but what about the rest? Isn't alchemy still complete dogshit? I think I read that at least. Fishing(the active one) is also garbage? Trading got a full rework like a couple months back and apparently it's still pretty shit? And wasn't the balancing of tradeskill money balanced around the fact you need energy to do it, so the silver should be somewhat close because it's a finite amount(granted grinding mobs also has limiting factors like loot scrolls and agris but even past these you can keep grinding). Energy is still a thing right, so even if say Alchemy pulled a bunch of money, you'd still be capped by energy(and well imperial turn in limits too which are still a thing I believe? for alchemy and such at least).

Click to expand...

Alchemy has a big problem with the fact that its mastery is kind of shit compared to cooking . To compensate for that, they put -alch time on Manos clothes, which was a decent idea at the time as a "trade-off". The issue now is that there are so many ways to get -cooking time that it just blows alchemy out of the water in terms of consistency. Also, the bottlenecks in alchemy are a lot less plentiful than cookings bottlenecks.

That said, alchemy CAN still make solid money, it's just a lot more sporadic than cooking is.

But again, cooking/alchemy is stuff you can literally do AFK. Why the fuck should it provide profit similar to top end grind spots? It's closer to the low to lower-mid tier range of grind spots in terms of profit, which I think is perfectly fine for the effort required. If anything, I think cooking probably needs a slight nerf but if you do that you threaten making a lot of the most common consumables not really available anymore. Which will piss off a lot of people. So, I do agree that alchemy either needs a buff or they need to increase the availability of its bottlenecks.

Pyros said:

Anyway having 2 profitable tradeskills out of the many isn't that great of a result. And it's not like they couldn't be made better without still being noticeably worse than grinding mobs but they only somewhat randomly remember to buff them(like the bartering buff). You have a bunch of stuff like that that kinda is left ignored(hell a lot of classes were left ignored for a while too although lately from the patch notes I've been reading they've been pretty active in buffing/changing stuff). It's not even that much of an issue overall, it's just if you're not into grinding mobs for hours on end, the other content feels neglected and to some extent not worth doing other than whatever the most recent flavor of the month one is(last time I played it was cooking box, now it's hunting).

Click to expand...

They're ALL profitable. The "issue" I think you're having is that you want them homogenized and all worth the same silver/hr despite the effort required. Like I said, lifeskilling is low effort as fuck and super chill. Much of it can be done afk. It's something GREAT to do while you have a movie on, you're watching some YouTube, TV, etc. And they ALL make midish grind spot levels of money, with hunting being the sole outlier that can make similar to top-end spots(and obviously stuff like afk-fishing, training, etc. don't make much at all but those are entirely done afk). But, hunting probably requires the most active effort of all the lifeskills, so it makes sense why it's the most profitable.

You can make roughly 400m/hour in almost every gathering skill. Mining, fluid collecting, butchering, hoe gathering, etc. The only one that is on the "lower" end of that is tanning, at around 200-230m/hour. I don't really see the issue here?

Now, I will agree that active fishing needs some work and whale hunting/ocean fishing in particular is something I wish they'd give more love. It's cool as fuck to take 3-4 bros out on your sailboat to go fish the ocean, but currently it just doesn't make much sense silver/hr wise. Not that I think it should compete if you took those same bros to a spot like Olun's, but it definitely needs some love.

Cinge said:

Hmm if I had nothing to use the 2 jammers on atm. Worth it just to buy a tri or if I could a tet of something, use a 150 advice and the hungers(that expire same time as jhammers), just to maybe get a chance at success or a high FS going. Or just let them all poof.

Click to expand...

Definitely worth it to use the hammers rather than just letting them poof, if you have the available cash. Worst case you sell back the TRI and only lose 15% to now have a decent failstack built. Best case you profit 15b or so.

Kirun said:

He's going to hate BDO, it's WAAAAY too difficult for his boomer ass and when games are hard, it's somehow the fault of the game and not him. He said he hated the "fighting game" style of it and wanted to be able to just hotkey his abilities like WoW. He's never going to last.

Click to expand...

It's kinda funny because I imagine most/all of us in here are older than him, he's only like 33 or something around there. But one look at the way he lives shows you he can't really handle change or leaving his comfort zone.

Kirun said:

Definitely worth it to use the hammers rather than just letting them poof, if you have the available cash. Worst case you sell back the TRI and only lose 15% to now have a decent failstack built. Best case you profit 15b or so.

Click to expand...

Yeah what I figured. Worst i sit on it until it goes and have a FS going.

Seems tri are popular(15+ POs for most) for that reason though, all sold out. Plenty of tets and a few pens for most weapons.

Cinge said:

Yeah what I figured. Worst i sit on it until it goes and have a FS going.

Seems tri are popular(15+ POs for most) for that reason though, all sold out. Plenty of tets and a few pens for most weapons.

Click to expand...

If I had the spare money, I would buy a tet blackstar and use the 150 + hungers and swing with the 2 hammers. If it doesn't go, you can either hold on to it for future hammers/cron swings or you can eat the loss of a couple hours of grinding and resell the tet. I like to gamble, though. The chance is obviously massively skewed towards not getting the pen so it's really just a matter of if you have the silver to buy the tet in the first place, and then whether or not you're willing to gamble a few billion silver on a small chance to win big.

zombiewizardhawk said:

If I had the spare money, I would buy a tet blackstar and use the 150 + hungers and swing with the 2 hammers. If it doesn't go, you can either hold on to it for future hammers/cron swings or you can eat the loss of a couple hours of grinding and resell the tet. I like to gamble, though. The chance is obviously massively skewed towards not getting the pen so it's really just a matter of if you have the silver to buy the tet in the first place, and then whether or not you're willing to gamble a few billion silver on a small chance to win big.

Click to expand...

I have a PO for a tri atm. If it gets close to the expire date for the hammers/hunger and no sale, I might just cough up for a tet(who's price has got up quite a lot from when I last looked). Especially as I saved 11 billion I was going to spend on a dream if I ever saw a peg in market, that can just go towards that.

Pyros said:

That's a load of horseshit. The classes are designed that way so that's why you can't change buttons? Even though they change buttons themselves when they notice some shit doesn't work very well? Even though buttons are all simple inputs, so effectively most classes are just as easy to play as the next one mechanically in terms of input? The difference between awakened nova and awakened guardian isn't the complexity of the inputs of nova, it's the much higher pace and amount of inputs(and secondary mechanics). This wouldn't change if instead of pressing back E you pressed back F. You could make it less annoying by "grouping" your rotation of skills sure but you'd still be pressing a bunch more buttons than if you were playing another class.

Click to expand...

LOL so having higher pace and number of inputs has nothing to do with complexity?

Pyros said:

The whole "it's designed that way that's why it can't be changed" is so weird. They literally have keybindings you can change for menus and movements and even for the general buttons you can press for your combos. They designed these too so why do they let you change them? The only thing you can't change are the directions and the specific assignements of a skill to a certain button in relation to other buttons. You can change E to Y if you want and back E becomes back Y, you just can't change back E to back Y while keeping forward E.

Click to expand...

F => Hotkey Spirit Legacy => RMB => W +F => Hold => Shift + F => Shift + RMB => RMB => A => S + LMB => Space => S + RMB => Hold => C => RMB => Shift +Z => Shift + Q => W+ F => Hold => Hotkey Legacy => Shift + F => S+ LMB => S + RMB => Hold => Shift + RMB => Shift + X => RMB => LMB + RMB => Hold => C => RMB

So, that's a typical Succession Dark Knight PvE combo.

You're telling me that combo effectively becomes NO more difficult if instead of the above I have to hit Shift + 1, Shift + 2, Shift + 3, Shift + Q, Shift + E, Shift + T, Shift + F, etc.? I mean, it's just the pace and amount of inputs, right? Never having to leave the shift key definitely wouldn't make things less complex than the above at all, right? Or is some of the difficulty exactly because of the way the inputs are setup/structured, so as to not be 100% intuitive and forcing you to input "combos" in a certain way?

Pyros said:

The meta argument has to be a joke right? You even say yourself ppl already flock to fotm classes. It MIGHT change what class is meta, but how the fuck does that matter when the game is already poorly balanced in terms of pve performance anyway? The inputs aren't going to change how shit some classes mobility or aoes are, it might makes the more input intensive classes more appealing to grind with, but that's not like that's the only factor in defining what's meta anyway, otherwise everyone would be playing Awake guardian and valk since these are braindead(well valk was, no idea what the recent changes did).

Click to expand...

The game is NOT poorly balanced when it comes to PvE. There are a a few outlier classes that perform above their "effort"(hi2u succ zerker) and a few classes that perform under their "effort". But for the most part, BDO is the most balanced it has EVER been in terms of PvE performance.

Was the balance pretty poor at one point? It absolutely was and you had braindead classes like Guardian that were EVERYWHERE because they could pull similar trash as a Succ Ninja for about 1/20th the effort - hell, it's precisely why I played Guardian for so fucking long despite not really enjoying it that much. Why the fuck go through extra effort on a class that pulls similar trash or in many cases...LESS?

The game is already littered with meta chasers and that problem will increase 1,000 fold if suddenly the "best" classes can be distilled down to a simple as fuck rotation where my finger never has to leave Shift, or RMB, or whatever input makes baby more comfortable. Now you've broken down the game's inputs down so far, you may as well just allow EVERYTHING to be put on a hotbar. If I never have to leave the shift key, then I rotate through 1, 2, 3, 4, Q, E, F, V, etc. how is that effectively any different from just letting me hotbar my entire skilltree? Now we have WoW...Asmon, is that you?!

As far as complexity being the "only" factor in determining meta, that absolutely 100% is a thing. You clearly haven't played the game long, because Awakened Guardian was absolutely one of if not the most played classes at the height of Awakened Guardian being super overpowered. Back when she was essentially one of the best grinders AND had the lowest complexity? She was fucking everywhere. Now that she's a mid-tier grinder, even after her "buffs", notice how you almost never see Awakened Guardians anymore? Because they all switched to Succ(because she's almost just as easy as awakened and a top grinder), if they even still play the class at all. Where has the meta shifted? Oh, right...Succ Zerker, Succ Woosa, and Succ Maegu. Why? Well, because they're all pretty braindead easy and top 5 or so PvE grinders.

You know what you DON'T see very often? Awakened Nova, DESPITE being the #1 PvE grinder in the game. Tamer is arguably the LEAST played class in the game and it's easily one of the best PvE classes out there. I'm sure their complexity has nothing to do with that though...

So yes, complexity is a MASSIVE contributor into what's "meta". And when you'd be able to distill down EVERY class to just a couple inputs following your suggestions, EVERYBODY would reroll Awakened Nova. Fuck, I'd tag one tomorrow if they allowed for key-bind swapping like you suggest.

Pyros said:

It takes MAYBE an hour to basically "master" a class for pve purposes. Have to touch up skill rotation based on mob rotation and spot but as long as we're talking about pve, it's barely any harder than having to learn a wow or ffxiv rotation if that. PvP is a different beast entirely.

Click to expand...

If that's REALLY the case and BDO is some "LOL EZ GAME", it's really a wonder why you're clamoring so hard for them to change inputs then. If you're such a gamer god, I'm really curious why this is such an issue for you? Clearly you can just take an hour, pop on any class, and go pull 22k trash at Hexe like you're playing pong. In that case, inputs really should be no problem.

Or maybe they actually do add complexity and they're there for a reason...

Look, maybe you truly are some gaming prodigy. But I'm betting the game either just isn't your cup of tea (which is fine), or you aren't as good at it as you think. And rather than accept this and find a class you "gel" with/feels good to you, somehow it's the game's/dev's fault for not conforming to YOU. These are the countless self-justifications I see streamer after streamer run through on streams.

"I'm not bad! The game is actually super easy! It's just that the game sucks! That's why it LOOKS like I'm bad".

Cinge said:

I have a PO for a tri atm. If it gets close to the expire date for the hammers/hunger and no sale, I might just cough up for a tet(who's price has got up quite a lot from when I last looked). Especially as I saved 11 billion I was going to spend on a dream if I ever saw a peg in market, that can just go towards that.

Click to expand...

I counted like 112 on the market just now (once I started checking for them I couldn't stop myself from counting them all). I think they were all females, tho, and only probably half had 24/24 skills.

zombiewizardhawk said:

I counted like 112 on the market just now (once I started checking for them I couldn't stop myself from counting them all). I think they were all females, tho, and only probably half had 24/24 skills.

Click to expand...

There are a lot now once the free ones came out. Before that, couldn't find a peg at all, it was all dine/doom.

I actually avoid classes that use or have good skills bound to Q, Shift-Q / Shift-E or S-Whatever, as I am not a WASD user (I use QWES, so it throws their scheme off a lot). If a class uses F a lot, I just swap it with R and it works ok. It is one of the main reasons I like Awakening Witch/Wiz so much, I can hotykey every useful skill and only ever use Shift-LMB / Shift-RMB / D...and the class still plays smoothly.

I also would love the ability to rebind the default key combos to whatever I want, but I can see that being far more trouble than its worth trying to keep track of Flows to make sure they were still linked properly. Yet, it would be great if they allowed it, having a UI element that had a list of all the key combos that class would use, and where you would just drag a skill into that "slot".

Pyros Lifeskills are in a pretty good place right now from what I've heard, but again, it takes just as much investment as PvE to be nearly as good as grinding. The Gathering mini-games and Agris give a big boost to profit.

Farming the materials up for T10 attempts is horrible. Dunno how many attempts Ill bother making before bailing on this nonsense and just stay happy with my T9

Zindan said:

I actually avoid classes that use or have good skills bound to Q, Shift-Q / Shift-E or S-Whatever, as I am not a WASD user (I use QWES, so it throws their scheme off a lot). If a class uses F a lot, I just swap it with R and it works ok. It is one of the main reasons I like Awakening Witch/Wiz so much, I can hotykey every useful skill and only ever use Shift-LMB / Shift-RMB / D...and the class still plays smoothly.

I also would love the ability to rebind the default key combos to whatever I want, but I can see that being far more trouble than its worth trying to keep track of Flows to make sure they were still linked properly. Yet, it would be great if they allowed it, having a UI element that had a list of all the key combos that class would use, and where you would just drag a skill into that "slot".

Pyros Lifeskills are in a pretty good place right now from what I've heard, but again, it takes just as much investment as PvE to be nearly as good as grinding. The Gathering mini-games and Agris give a big boost to profit.

Click to expand...

I use ESDF. It gives me more keys to access using the pinky. I remapped BDO to this setup and it works just fine. All the combos work, etc. I moved shift to A. It's an amazingly fluid setup. BDO is smart enough to move most of the combo selections. The tutorial etc, still mention the original setup, but that's not a big deal.

zombiewizardhawk said:

I counted like 112 on the market just now (once I started checking for them I couldn't stop myself from counting them all). I think they were all females, tho, and only probably half had 24/24 skills.

Click to expand...

T9 Peggy's weren't actually that bad to find if you just had an alert set on the horse trainer discord. Since most people don't want to do that, it makes it work pretty well. And with all the skill coupons they give out, getting max skills is super easy too (at least on dream horses).

Also, looks like we're maybe getting a failstack system for T10 awakenings tomorrow.

Avatar of Nyx said:

Farming the materials up for T10 attempts is horrible. Dunno how many attempts Ill bother making before bailing on this nonsense and just stay happy with my T9

Click to expand...

I'd wait until they buff the acquisition of the materials, should be coming soon.

Uriel said:

I'd wait until they buff the acquisition of the materials, should be coming soon.

Click to expand...

Oh that'll be handy. I wasnt paying nearly enough attention when I started gathering up stuff and soon realized i needed 100 fruits, fern roots, flowers of oblivion, etc, not just 10. Ill have the stuff for my first attempt after the Fern root weekly reset this week, then Ill sit tight and see about the buffs

Yeah, they're buffing the daily/weeklies + the failstack system.

I like T10 from the fact that it'll be a way to separate from the plebs. Now that they gave T9s away they're fucking everywhere and no longer really novel. Gotta get that T10 flex. I've been stocking up Fruits like a goddamn squirrel.

I'm also super fucking excited for the inventory categories tomorrow. I sort my inventory like a retard, so it'll be super nice to have that. Plus, the "newbie" inventory as a stop-gap until they revamp the new player experience should be helpful for my LS alts.