Boston Marathon Explosion - Today's Topics: Public Schools

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earthfell

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NPR interviewed John Ashcroft over this this morning. When did all these Bush administration people start crawling out from under the rocks they've been hiding?

I lol'd when he said "As I tell my students, not reading a person's Miranda Rights can make their testimony inadmissible in court." Who in this country does not know that, after decades of Law & Order being on the air?
 

a_skeleton_03

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Main thing is 5th amendment rights. If he was mirandized he could sit there, claim the 5th not say a word and they aren't even allowed to ask him questions. They might as well shot him in the boat if that's the case.
 

Numbers_sl

shitlord
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Honestly I think it is an ideological fight right now that is being played at the highest levels. The GOP is desperate to defend their long time position on interrogation and their legacy of decisions involving Iraq and whatever.
 

Falstaff

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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One thing I heard from Pete Williams or someone else on NBC is this... If he confesses, and he wasn't read his Miranda rights, that confession is not allowed in court. But all the other evidence doesn't automatically go away and can still be used against him

And I don't think it's that simple Malakriss. Just because he is not mirandized doesn't automatically make him an enemy combatant.

As an aside, he apparently has some serious damage to his mouth and they think it could be a month or longer before he can even speak.

Edit: and I heard the same thing, a_skeleton_03
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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Yeah but unless the agencies involved really cocked up the evidence it seems like any confessions he makes are unnecessary to proving guilt.
 

Famm

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They might as well shot him in the boat if that's the case.
I'd actually have been more comfortable with that than stripping his right to due process. Didn't seem like they ever had the opportunity to claim he was threatening deadly force at them though, and too many cameras and shit to fake it I guess.

I could be wrong but I didn't think the lack of mirandizing is necessarily going to ruin his prosecution...and how do we know he wasn't? I'm not really reading the news on this. He could have been given his rights once safely in custody? Wasn't he injured? That and safely transporting him under the circumstances would seem to take precedence over miranda.

Edit: Ok yeah, makes sense. Who gives a fuck if he confesses, looks like a pretty tough sell to claim innocence with photographic evidence.
 

a_skeleton_03

<Banned>
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Is that true? I thought the 5th amendment does not protect you from being asked questions?
This was a big issue a little while back.

The questioning does not have to be explicit to trigger Miranda rights. For example, two police officers engaging in a conversation designed to elicit an incriminating statement from a suspect would constitute questioning. A person may choose to waive his Miranda rights, but the prosecution has the burden of showing that such a waiver was actually made.
^-- this is from wikipedia but I am looking around for a more official stance

Basically what happened iirc was someone had invoked 5th amendment and then the cops just started talking in front of him and he just started talking along with them and incriminated himself.
 

Famm

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They will talk their asses off at you believe me. Defenses try to prove coercion and shit like a motherfucker and having seen the way detectives operate sometimes I don't blame them. Its amazing how many guilty people just blabber everything as soon as they are arrested and then act shocked that the cops use their own words against them as if they were supposed to get brownie points for being honest and cooperative. First rule of getting charged with a crime, shut the fuck up and ask for a lawyer.
 

a_skeleton_03

<Banned>
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I'd actually have been more comfortable with that than stripping his right to due process. Didn't seem like they ever had the opportunity to claim he was threatening deadly force at them though, and too many cameras and shit to fake it I guess.

I could be wrong but I didn't think the lack of mirandizing is necessarily going to ruin his prosecution...and how do we know he wasn't? I'm not really reading the news on this. He could have been given his rights once safely in custody? Wasn't he injured? That and safely transporting him under the circumstances would seem to take precedence over miranda.

Edit: Ok yeah, makes sense. Who gives a fuck if he confesses, looks like a pretty tough sell to claim innocence with photographic evidence.
I think it was explicitly announced that they were not mirandizing him and invoking the special clause from the 80's allowing them to not do so.
 

Malice_sl

shitlord
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Doesn't giving someone their Miranda rights when they're arrested just make them aware of what their rights are in case they don't know? They rights themselves are still there, the difference is they just didn't tell him he had the right to remain silent. He can still sit there and not answer any of their questions, whether or not he was read his rights. It's not like they've taken away those rights. Or am I talking out of my ass?
 

Kaige

<WoW Guild Officer>
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Might help, an article about it:

Boston marathon suspect still in serious condition

BOSTON (AP) ? As the lone surviving suspect in the Boston Marathon bombing lay hospitalized under heavy guard, the American Civil Liberties Union and a federal public defender raised concerns about investigators' plan to question 19-year-old Dzhokhar Tsarnaev without reading him his Miranda rights.

What Tsarnaev will say and when are unclear. He remained in serious condition Sunday and apparently in no shape for interrogation after being pulled bloodied and wounded from a tarp-covered boat in a Watertown backyard. The capture came at the end of a tense Friday that began with his 26-year-old brother, Tamerlan, dying in a gunbattle with police.

U.S. officials said an elite interrogation team would question the Massachusetts college student without reading him his Miranda rights, something that is allowed on a limited basis when the public may be in immediate danger, such as when bombs are planted and ready to go off.

ACLU Executive Director Anthony Romero said the legal exception applies only when there is a continued threat to public safety and is "not an open-ended exception" to the Miranda rule, which guarantees the right to remain silent and the right to an attorney.

The federal public defender's office in Massachusetts said it has agreed to represent Tsarnaev once he is charged. Miriam Conrad, public defender for Massachusetts, said he should have a lawyer appointed as soon as possible because there are "serious issues regarding possible interrogation."

There was no immediate word on when Tsarnaev might be charged and what those charges would be. The twin bombings killed three people and wounded more than 180. The most serious charge available to federal prosecutors would be the use of a weapon of mass destruction to kill people, which carries a possible death sentence. Massachusetts does not have the death penalty.

President Barack Obama said there are many unanswered questions about the bombing, including whether the Tsarnaev brothers ? ethnic Chechens from southern Russia who had been in the U.S. for about a decade and lived in the Boston area ? had help from others. The president urged people not to rush judgment about their motivations.

Gov. Deval Patrick said Saturday that Tsarnaev was probably unable to communicate. Tsarnaev was at Boston's Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, where 11 victims of the bombing were still being treated.

"I, and I think all of the law enforcement officials, are hoping for a host of reasons the suspect survives," the governor said after a ceremony at Fenway Park to honor the victims and survivors of the attack. "We have a million questions, and those questions need to be answered."

The all-day manhunt Friday brought the Boston area to a near standstill and put people on edge across the metropolitan area. The break came around nightfall when a homeowner in Watertown saw blood on his boat, pulled back the tarp and saw a bloody Tsarnaev hiding inside, police said. After an exchange of gunfire, he was seized and taken away in an ambulance.

Raucous celebrations erupted in and around Boston, with chants of "USA! USA!" Residents flooded the streets in relief four days after the two pressure-cooker bombs packed with nails and other shrapnel went off.

Michael Spellman said he bought tickets to Saturday's Red Sox game at Fenway Park to help send a message to the bombers. "They're not going to stop us from doing things we love to do," he said, sitting a few rows behind home plate. "We're not going to live in fear."

During the long night of violence leading up to the capture, the Tsarnaev brothers killed an MIT police officer, severely wounded another lawman and took part in a furious shootout and car chase in which they hurled explosives at police from a large homemade arsenal, authorities said.

Watertown Police Chief Edward Deveau said one of the explosives was the same type used during the Boston Marathon attack, and authorities later recovered a pressure cooker lid that had embedded in a car down the street. He said the suspects also tossed two grenades before Tamerlan ran out of ammunition and police tackled him.

But while handcuffing him, officers had to dive out of the way as Dzhokhar drove the carjacked Mercedes at them, Deveau said. The SUV dragged Tamerlan's body down the block, he said. Police initially tracked the escaped suspect by a blood trail he left behind a house after abandoning the Mercedes.

Chechnya, where the Tsarnaev family has roots, has been the scene of two wars between Russian forces and separatists since 1994. That spawned an Islamic insurgency that has carried out deadly bombings in Russia and the region, although not in the West.

Investigators have not offered a motive for the Boston attack. But in interviews with officials and those who knew the Tsarnaev brothers, a picture has emerged of the older one as someone embittered toward the U.S., increasingly vehement in his Muslim faith and influential over his younger brother.

The Russian FSB intelligence service told the FBI in 2011 about information that Tamerlan Tsarnaev was a follower of radical Islam, two law enforcement officials said Saturday. According to an FBI news release, a foreign government said that Tamerlan Tsarnaev appeared to be strong believer and that he had changed drastically since 2010 as he prepared to leave the U.S. for travel to the Russian region to join unspecified underground groups.

The FBI did not name the foreign government, but the two officials said it was Russia. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk about the matter publicly.

The FBI said that in response, it interviewed Tamerlan Tsarnaev and relatives and did not find any domestic or foreign terrorism activity. The bureau said it looked into such things as his telephone and online activity, his travels and his associations with others.

An uncle of the Tsarnaev brothers said he had a falling-out with Tamerlan over the man's increased commitment to Islam. Ruslan Tsarni of Montgomery Village, Md., said Tamerlan told him in a 2009 phone conversation that he had chosen "God's business" over work or school. Tsarni said he then contacted a family friend who told him Tsarnaev had been influenced by a recent convert to Islam.

Tsarni said his relationship with his nephew basically ended after that call. As for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, "he's been absolutely wasted by his older brother. I mean, he used him. He used him for whatever he's done," Tsarni said.

Albrecht Ammon, a downstairs-apartment neighbor of Tamerlan Tsarnaev in Cambridge, said in an interview that the older brother had strong political views about the U.S. Ammon quoted Tsarnaev as saying that the U.S. uses the Bible as "an excuse for invading other countries."

Tamerlan Tsarnaev studied accounting as a part-time student at Bunker Hill Community College in Boston for three semesters from 2006 to 2008, the school said. He was married with a young daughter. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was a student at the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth.

As of Saturday, more than 50 victims of the bombing remained hospitalized, three in critical condition.
 

Cybsled

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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Well the kid can't speak right now, so it's a moot point currently. They still have time to advise him of his rights before they start questioning.
 

Azrayne

Irenicus did nothing wrong
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Its amazing how many guilty people just blabber everything as soon as they are arrested and then act shocked that the cops use their own words against them as if they were supposed to get brownie points for being honest and cooperative
Maybe because cops constantly lie and pretend that theywillgive them brownie points for honesty? 'Come on mate, it's not a big deal, they'll go easy on you if you just make this easy and own up to it... etc etc' Of course a lot of people end up falling for it, they'd be stressed out, worrying about what's going to happen to them, either tired or pumped full of adrenaline, no way they're thinking straight in that situation, then the cop comes along and smiles and gives them a drink and pretends to be a nice guy just doing their job who wants to help you as much as he can because you just made some silly mistake, and bam.
 

spronk

FPS noob
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with miranda rights you (or lawyer) can signal you want the questioning to stop, and the police have to stop. Without miranda they can question you indefinitely, although any evidence obtained may not be admissable. It sounds like they basically want to evoke the clause of continued threat (part of a cell, more terrorists, controller, etc) until they figure out if these 2 acted alone or not, and don't really care about confession.

Really interesting note on how the "best friend" of the (dead) elder brother was murdered 2 years ago, apparently in a drug incident. Did it trigger rage/suicidal thoughts in the older brother? Was the older brother involved maybe?
http://www.businessinsider.com/murde...sarnaev-2013-4

Elder brother also was thrown out of a mosque three months ago for raging against martin luther king
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ther-King.html
 

Gravel

Mr. Poopybutthole
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Doesn't giving someone their Miranda rights when they're arrested just make them aware of what their rights are in case they don't know? They rights themselves are still there, the difference is they just didn't tell him he had the right to remain silent. He can still sit there and not answer any of their questions, whether or not he was read his rights. It's not like they've taken away those rights. Or am I talking out of my ass?
Pretty much this. The whole "can't prosecute if not mirandized" thing is a Hollywood myth. Makes Ashcroft's comment look retarded, except for the fact that he used the wordmay. Yeah, itmaynot be admissible, but it likely will be.