Breaking Bad

Pride goeth before the fall.
Jesse fucked up so damn many times, and Walt's pride would not let him abandon him because yeah, he was the son he wanted/chose, that he could teach and actually fix.

Everyone on the show but Flynn was an asshole, and Flynn was a retard.

TheBeagle said:

Jesse was a dumb kid that was in way over his head. He eventually grew into a solid man (in terms of the show). Is everyone forgetting how well he was doing after Mike took him under his wing? Mike obviously saw something worthwhile in him and I would say he was pretty good at sizing people up. The Fring's revenge episode in Mexico proves that Mike was right about him.

Walt and his neverending butthurt ego couldn't let Jesse have that though. He had to take him away from Fring and put him back on the path that ended with Jesse in a pit and Mike with a bullet in his stomach.

Walt had no humanity by the end of the show and I'm not sure he EVER had any humanity.

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Also Mike was a cop, he knew a lot of shit about crime. Walter tried to gain his approval several times but Mike saw right through him instantly.

MusicForFish if you're on season two get ready for the moment that hooked me for a week or two. Everything after is like a train at full speed. Won't say what it is but it has something to do with turtles before s5 aired. Breaking Bad is excellent binge material.

TheBeagle said:

He fucking fake poisoned Jesse's girlfriend's little boy and and then set it up so Jesse would think Fring did it. All because he was butthurt that Fring, Mike, and Jesse were all doing well WITHOUT him. Just like the biochem billionaires. It was Walt's butthurt fucking ego that killed everyone on that show and put Jesse in that pit.

If Walt would have ridden into the sunset with his $30 million then stupid Jesse would have had a low key, successful (relative term here) career cooking for Gus while Mike and Gus kept the business running on the downlow. But no, he couldn't just take his winnings, buy a ranch in Montana, and go have a happy life with his family. He had to burn it all down to show everyone how important the mighty Heisenberg was

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This was after Jesse fucked Walt over and essentially left him to die as the target of Fring.

Why are you cutting out Jesse fucking over Walt? Walt didn't act just because he was jealous. Walt got into a war with Gus because Jesse wanted to kill Fring's drug dealers, and Walt sided with Jesse. This was AFTER Jesse began stealing from Gus to sell to literal recovery groups (lol).

Then AFTER Walt saved Jesse, Gus blew smoke up Jesse's ass and slowly pulled him away from Walt so he could isolate and kill Walt while still having a cook. And Jesse went to work for the man that killed a child because he was saying nice things, betraying the man who was only in this mess to defend him (He's such a piece of shit). At this point, Walt could not just "walk away"--Gus already clearly telegraphed he was going to die once Jesse was secured as the new cook. Walt needed Jesse to win the fight against Gus, so he poisoned the boy to pull Jesse back. It had NOTHING to do with Butthurt. Jesse started a war that he was going to lose, and then betrayed the man who saved him from dying in the war. After the cold war began, Jesse swapped sides, and only THEN did Walt begin fucking with Jesse after he realized the sac of shit had no principles or loyalty and would follow whatever person stroked his tiny dicked ego the most.

Nothing about that was ego outside of Jesse's NEED to have his ego stroked. It was Walt fighting to shield himself from Fring once Fring had no more use for him. A situation he was only in because he constantly put himself on the line to defend Jesse. (Gus literally tells Jesse the only reason he's not dead is due to Walt).

chaos said:

That isnt exactly how it went down. Walt fired Gale to get Jesse back in, Jesse wasnt pressuring him except that instead of just taking the money and running he was determined to set up shop for himself in the aftermath of the beating Hank gave him. Jesse wasn't stealing meth until after that. And it was specifically finding out about Andrea's brother killing Combo then finding how the kids were being used that sparked Jesse to confront Walt and then Gus over the use of kids. That situation itself was complicated as well, Walt betrayed Jesse's confidence, but he did it to help him, but it was a naive move because he didnt really understand Gus and Mike. (Some might have even called it a half measure HO HO HO...)

With Mike and Jesse, yes it was contrived, at least at first. Yes, their intent was to wedge between them. Which Walt played into perfectly by demeaning Jesse when he approached him about it. Walt wanted to play the father figure, then Walt got outplayed at that by Mike and Gus. They were just better at it, and Jesse responded to their mentorship in a way he never really did with Walt, which hurt Walts feelings, led to him digging his hole further.

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Jesse began with pressure at the start of Season 3, he demanded Walt cut him in for what was sold and for the new contract. Walt said no, but eventually relented and gave Jesse half the money after Jesse threatened him; but told Jesse he wouldn't work with him. Jesse then went to cook on his own, but Walt understood Jesse would fuck up, and eventually lead the DEA back to him--which Jesse did....like immediately, like the first action Jesse undertook did exactly that. So in order to appease Jesse he gave Jesse what he wanted, he cut him back in and fired Gale. The entire season was about this.

Also yeah, you're right. Combo's death was Jesse trying to sell their own meth. I forgot. The stolen Meth he was trying to peddle to recovery groups lol (I remember watching and thinking 'god damn this guy is such a piece of shit, its amazing everyone likes him). But the reason he wanted to poison Combo's killers is because he found out the kid killed him. At the time, he had no idea those guys were working for Gus; he didn't go to Walt and Gus to confront them, he originally went to Walt to get help to kill them, by poisoning their food. Walt then went to Mike, to ask Mike if he'd do the hit at which point Mike informed Walt that the dealers were working for Gus (He also essentially offered to get rid of Jesse because he was "just a junkie" and said when Fring hears of this, knowing Jesse is a junkie, he's just going to want to kill him). So Walt had Gus broker a peace and demanded Jesse not be killed but Jesse's objection was the kid. Gus saw the divide between Jesse and Walt, and decided to hammer it by killing the kid to provoke Jesse into coming after the dealers anyway, hoping it would show Walt that Jesse was just a reckless junkie and Walt couldn't save him.

Except, Walt did save him. In that moment, Walt chose Jesse over Gus and began the war. So when Walt realized the kind of man Gus was, he defended Jesse. And that is the kind of principle test Jesse failed. Because despite knowing Gus ordered that kid dead, Jesse went to work for him, betraying Walt. All because...again, Gus made him feel like a man. It really betrayed to me the fact that Jesse's principles were more about revenge than anything else, and ignored the moment they needed to be.

Fight said:

You loons went fucking crazy up in this thread.

It is a work of fiction. If Jesse is a dumb-ass and fucks up, it is because it brings conflict and tension to the narrative. That is how you do fiction, Conflict --> Resolution --> Revelation/Discovery --> Repeat.

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Yeah, but the great part of a show is discussing that narrative and the motivations of people. Khane said it best, the consideration of the sliding scale of evil. The fun part of Breaking Bad is understanding how motivations and circumstance change what we view of as evil, its fun discussing characters than can display that complexity really well. Its why The Wire and BB always have good discussions, imo.

Lithose said:

Jesse began with pressure at the start of Season 3, he demanded Walt cut him in for what was sold and for the new contract. Walt said no, but eventually relented and gave Jesse half the money after Jesse threatened him; but told Jesse he wouldn't work with him. Jesse then went to cook on his own, but Walt understood Jesse would fuck up, and eventually lead the DEA back to him--which Jesse did....like immediately, like the first action Jesse undertook did exactly that. So in order to appease Jesse he gave Jesse what he wanted, he cut him back in and fired Gale. The entire season was about this.

Also yeah, you're right. Combo's death was Jesse trying to sell their own meth. I forgot. The stolen Meth he was trying to peddle to recovery groups lol (I remember watching and thinking 'god damn this guy is such a piece of shit, its amazing everyone likes him). But the reason he wanted to poison Combo's killers is because he found out the kid killed him. At the time, he had no idea those guys were working for Gus; he didn't go to Walt and Gus to confront them, he originally went to Walt to get help to kill them, by poisoning their food. Walt then went to Mike, to ask Mike if he'd do the hit at which point Mike informed Walt that the dealers were working for Gus (He also essentially offered to get rid of Jesse because he was "just a junkie" and said when Fring hears of this, knowing Jesse is a junkie, he's just going to want to kill him). So Walt had Gus broker a peace and demanded Jesse not be killed but Jesse's objection was the kid. Gus saw the divide between Jesse and Walt, and decided to hammer it by killing the kid to provoke Jesse into coming after the dealers anyway, hoping it would show Walt that Jesse was just a reckless junkie and Walt couldn't save him.

Except, Walt did save him. In that moment, Walt chose Jesse over Gus and began the war. So when Walt realized the kind of man Gus was, he defended Jesse. And that is the kind of principle test Jesse failed. Because despite knowing Gus ordered that kid dead, Jesse went to work for him, betraying Walt. All because...again, Gus made him feel like a man. It really betrayed to me the fact that Jesse's principles were more about revenge than anything else, and ignored the moment they needed to be.

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Walt was being a huge cocksucker about the money with Jesse, acting like he wasn't going to give it to him. The thing is framed like a parent trying to instill discipline in a child, and that's probably a big part of what influenced Walt. But part of it was also his own ego. As fucked up as the initial cooks and sells went, Walt couldn't have made it to the point where he was working with Gus without him and trying to hold back on that money was what birdpeople would call a "dick move". This also plays into Gus and Mike's play with Jesse. Walt didn't give Jesse respect even for things he had actually done, Walt's drive to be the smartest guy in the room poisoned his relationship with Jesse and Mike used that. It was so easy for Mike to turn Jesse, because Walt was such a cocksucker he couldn't just give him some credit, or give him the money he actually helped make.

This is a big thing that led to the Gale scenario. Jesse's getting no respect from this dude, getting cut out, not being given his money, his parents are trying to fuck him over on the house, and there's Walt undercutting his abilities and his self esteem. So he lashes out, fuck you Walt I'm going to get out of this hospital bed and I'm going to cook. And Walt has a moment of real feeling and conscience (weird application for it, but...) and he instigates the Gale firing, that wasn't about appeasing Jesse that was about his own feelings in how he had treated his "son".

Walt did save him from the dealers. I disagree about the "test" though. There wasn't a choice, he was working for Gus at that point whether he wanted to or not. And Walt knew exactly what Gus and Mike were doing by trying to get in between them. He could have handled that in a way that actually exposed their machinations and brought him and Jesse closer. Instead he undercut Jesse and played into their hands. And, at some point, why shouldn't Jesse try and break the cycle for himself? He's living a fucked up life, he's surrounded by people who just shit on him, his aunt was the only person in his life who really was in his corner, and she died a long horrible death. So now there's a guy here telling him "I have faith in you, you can do this." and there's another guy, who says he's a friend and partner, who says "you couldn't do anything without me, without me you're nothing, you fuck up everything you even try".

TL;DR, most cringe moment of the entire show was Walt's "fugue state". Bro, you're a fucking nobel prize winning scientist and THIS is the best you got?

Agree that talking about the show and looking at different takes is interesting.

Like Khane and TheBeagle I'm rewatching again before the movie. On s1 now.

The new mindhunter is pretty good.

The last couple pages are a good study into how rational, intelligent people can view the exact same events and come to entirely different conclusions. I think it boils down to empathy. Some people empathize or "see themselves as" Walt or Jesse and that totally colors how they process what they see.

I get what you mean but I disagree. Personally I don't relate or sympathize with Walter, Jesse, or any other character. I hope intelligent people can apply and dissect fiction, symbolism and meaning without inserting their own selves into it.

I think that in any story the ability to empathize with a character is a key component of how to analyze the story. With each character in Breaking Bad, there is a base, uncharitable view you can take with them that comes from stripping out all nuance you'd get from empathizing with the character. In that read, Jesse is just a worthless burnout, Walt is just a monstrous sociopath, Gus is just a vicious warlord, Skylar is just a shrill harpy, etc. I think its a worse show if you strip out all the layers that make them complicated characters, and its hard to analyze the characters in a way to see their different facets without empathy.

If you can't empathize in some way with any of the characters in a movie/show/play then it's either not worth watching or you're an emotionless robot. I don't understand how anyone could enjoy a show like BB, The Wire, or Sopranos and then say they don't relate at all to any of the characters. Seems weird to me.

Good stories have sympathetic characters. Without them it isn't a story, its just a series of events written on a page. You don't need to identify personally with a character to understand and feel some type of emotional response to them. Whether it's empathy, hatred, envy, whatever. They may also just remind you of people you know or have met in your life. That's what makes characters believable and brings a story to life.

I can relate more to Walt than I can anyone else on this show. That being said. He surprised me several times at how much of a fucking asshole he can be. The worst things being his nasty rebuke to any kind of help with his cancer. The whole point of this show was Walt having to become a villain to secure his family's future after he's dead. He had opportunities to save himself and become stinking rich in the process. LEGALLY. Nope! Fuck you and your charity! It really irritated me.

Lanx said:

wasn't the only help w/ cancer when Gray Matter offered him a faux job just to get on the super health insurance? and we've seen how he feels they done him dirty.

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Yeah. He had that one. But he got offered help a few times. He also could have left the Blue business and went back to his old life after his cancer went into remission.

I think he burned that bridge pretty severely once he tried to hit on his old boss. Plus, the point of his increasing doucheness was that once he got a taste of "success" and "power" he wasn't about to go back to old Walt.