Breaking Bad

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chaos

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I may be remembering this wrong but didn't walt order jesse to kill gale because walt felt gale was a threat (i.e. as smart, or smarter than him). Though I guess that's kind of your point. Walt wanted the relationship dynamic he had with Jesse because Jesse was dumb and could be controlled. Gale was smart and couldn't be controlled.
Walt got Gale fired from the lab so he could being in Jesse. He brought him in after the RV incident when Jesse got fucked up by Hank. 8 dont think therea any one reason there. Power over Jesse, leveraging his position against Gus, consolidating overall authority, just plain ego ay wanting to be the mentor role, etc. Lots of stuff at play.

Jesse freaked out when he found out the organization was using kids as dealers and even drafting them into murders, after he found out about Combo's killer. Gus told them to stop, so they killed the kid. When Andrea's brother got killed, Jesse got high as fuck and went to kill Gus' soldiers who did it. Then Walt did his thing and said "run" and told him to kill Gale to protect the both of them from Gus.
 

Chukzombi

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I didnt say everyone else was just a minor criminal and Walt was the only one who did anything bad. Marie stole a fucking piece of jewelry, Walt created a regional neo nazi drug syndicate. There are different levels, I dont even know what you're saying with this "nobody exempt from blame" thing. Blame for what? Yes, every character, every human in existence, has done some bad shit. That doesnt mean it's all equivalent.

I think you should rewatch the show. Walt spent most of the time he worked with Gus manipulating Jesse and modeling a father/son mentor/mentee relationship with him, for a lot of reasons.
as i said we will have to just disagree, perhaps we both need to rewatch the show, because i remember several times Walt cut himself loose of Jesse. Jesse was causing Walt a lot of grief amd Saul even brought up a discussion of having Jesse eliminated, but Walt talked him out of it. Walt was a monster, a giant monster, but Jesse was right by his side, the only difference was Jesse would cry about it while Walt embraced the dark.
 

chaos

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as i said we will have to just disagree, perhaps we both need to rewatch the show, because i remember several times Walt cut himself loose of Jesse. Jesse was causing Walt a lot of grief amd Saul even brought up a discussion of having Jesse eliminated, but Walt talked him out of it. Walt was a monster, a giant monster, but Jesse was right by his side, the only difference was Jesse would cry about it while Walt embraced the dark.
I've rewatched it fairly recently. Walt's revolving relationship with Jesse IS the show. In each scenario Walt draws Jesse in, or Jesse allows himself to be drawn in. They fought, they had in and out times, but inevitably it was always them together until the end when Jesse went off the reservation and Walt replaced him with Pseudojesse and everything went to shit.
 
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Lanx

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as i said we will have to just disagree, perhaps we both need to rewatch the show, because i remember several times Walt cut himself loose of Jesse. Jesse was causing Walt a lot of grief amd Saul even brought up a discussion of having Jesse eliminated, but Walt talked him out of it. Walt was a monster, a giant monster, but Jesse was right by his side, the only difference was Jesse would cry about it while Walt embraced the dark.
that was Jesses problem, he didn't know his role. On a team there is always an Alpha and a Bitch. Jesse always wanted to be the Alpha... you know, he was doing it right in the beginning, he was the bitch, but also he got a team of underlings underhim so he was the Alpha of the fuckup'd dealers.

But then he'd always go back to wanting to cook and be the Alpha cook. He's not a fucking executive head chef, but he made a great sous chef. He always wanted to be "partners".

this is when you know a company is doomed to fail when they have co-ceo's, like "oh, it's just two hens pecking at each other, theres no leader".
 
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Lithose

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Walt got Gale fired from the lab so he could being in Jesse. He brought him in after the RV incident when Jesse got fucked up by Hank. 8 dont think therea any one reason there. Power over Jesse, leveraging his position against Gus, consolidating overall authority, just plain ego ay wanting to be the mentor role, etc. Lots of stuff at play.

Jesse freaked out when he found out the organization was using kids as dealers and even drafting them into murders, after he found out about Combo's killer. Gus told them to stop, so they killed the kid. When Andrea's brother got killed, Jesse got high as fuck and went to kill Gus' soldiers who did it. Then Walt did his thing and said "run" and told him to kill Gale to protect the both of them from Gus.

You guys have such a skewed memory of these events. Walt had to fire Gale because Jesse was fucking Walt over and demanding back in the business. After Jesse got back in, he began fucking everything up.

Jesse didn't freak out when he saw they were using kids as dealers. Jesse freaked out because Combo got killed, and then he learned a kid spotted for the killers and used that as an excuse so he wouldn't have to admit he stole the drugs. Gus then killed the kid to try and keep Walt from protecting Jesse by luring Jesse to attack the dealers, and instead of Walt allowing Jesse to die for being a belligerent self destructive asshole, Walt doubled down and was loyal and killed the dealers for Jesse.

Then Mike set up a couple nice incidents for Jesse to shine in, and Jesse immediately abandons Walt to side with the mother fucker he was supposedly so furious at that he had to blow everything up just a season before because "he hurt children" (I guess that stopped matter when Gus said some nice things to him; that's literally all it took to get Jesse to stop caring about the "harming" children--Mike and Gus stroking his ego.). So after Jesse destroyed EVERYTHING because he was a belligerent asshole, he betrayed the man who saved him and ignored all the supposed "principles" he claimed lead him to being such an asshole.

Jesse was a piece of shit.
 
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Lithose

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Jesse was a dumb kid that was in way over his head. He eventually grew into a solid man (in terms of the show). Is everyone forgetting how well he was doing after Mike took him under his wing? Mike obviously saw something worthwhile in him and I would say he was pretty good at sizing people up. The Fring's revenge episode in Mexico proves that Mike was right about him.

Walt and his neverending butthurt ego couldn't let Jesse have that though. He had to take him away from Fring and put him back on the path that ended with Jesse in a pit and Mike with a bullet in his stomach.

Walt had no humanity by the end of the show and I'm not sure he EVER had any humanity.

Walt's butthurt had nothing to do with it. Walt was in a massive war with Gus and his life was on the line, and Jesse was the key to turning it around because Jesse was close to Gus. Walt couldn't let Jesse have that because Jesse was a judas little cunt that fucked over everyone and then decided to swap sides.

This is the chain of events that lead to Walt not allowing Jesse to leave. You tell me where Walt did anything to 'trap' Jesse in this shit show until Jesse already dug his own grave, and then wanted to abandon Walt after Walt jumped in to save him.

1.) Forced his way back into the meth business by threatening to fuck over Hank, forcing Walt to fire Gale who he had a great working relationship with.
2.) Decided to STEAL Meth from Gus because he felt "Gus wasn't paying them enough"--after Walt told him they were making millions and begged Jesse just to...not be an asshole.
3.) Push his friend to sell the Meth AFTER two Cartel members warning the friend NOT to sell in their territory--he shamed and hounded his friend despite Combo wanting to quit, like a manipulative cunt.
4.) Combo died and Jesse decides he's going to kill those two Cartel members because "they used kids" to lure Combo into a trap. But its just some self righteous excuse because Jesse can't admit he's furious his friend is dead and wants revenge. (And this excuse would go on to kill the kid).
5.) Walt saves Jesse by stopping the hit and brokering a peace deal with Gus. Jesse demands they not use kids. Gus at this point wants Jesse gone so he has them murder the child in order to provoke Jesse so his guys can kill Jesse without Walter losing it, because he's seen Walter is intensely loyal toward Jesse.
6.) Walt rides in and saves Jesse's life, literally. Telling Gus he'll never abandon him and having Jesse kill Gale to cut off Gus's options.

After that point, Walt was in deep shit with Gus. At what point in this chain of events did Walt "manipulate" Jesse? At what point was it not Jesse that fucked over Walt? After this, after he fucks over Walt and exploits Walt's loyalty, Gus sets up a couple scenarios to blow smoke up Jesse's ass, and Jesse abandons Walt. During Gus's manipulations, Walt didn't manipulate Jesse--Walt literally just told him the truth about how Gus set up the robbery, Walt was the ONLY one ironically NOT manipulating Jesse and being totally honest with him (That's what made the scene so brilliant. Mike and Gus were being kind and supportive, but it was a manipulation to hurt/kill Walt. Walt, meanwhile, was treating Jesse like a peer and being frank and honest with him, NOT manipulating him, so he sounded harsh toward Jesse, and thus the manipulation seemed "better" lol). And Jesse, of course, went with the side willing to manipulate him (After which Walt pretty much understood Jesse is a weak person who will go where the strongest wind is blowing from, which is why at that point he begins actively manipulating Jesse).

And what, you're telling me if you were in Walt's shoes you wouldn't be fucking furious at that? Just because Jesse cries on demand and acts like a buffoon doesn't mean he wasn't a manipulative, conniving person. Jesse gravitated to whatever made him feel good or powerful, destroying everyone around him to do so.
 
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iannis

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That's why the NA scene was so good.

For a minute, Jesse admitted what a piece of shi t he was. You didn't get that from anyone else in the show.
 

Lithose

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I may be remembering this wrong but didn't walt order jesse to kill gale because walt felt gale was a threat (i.e. as smart, or smarter than him, his replacement). Though I guess that's kind of your point. Walt wanted the relationship dynamic he had with Jesse because Jesse was dumb and could be controlled. Gale was smart and couldn't be controlled.

Edit: Nope, that wasn't it, he told Jesse to kill Gale because it was the only way he would be able to stay alive/necessary himself.

Its the only way they'd both be able to stay alive...Because Jesse started a war with Gus because Jesse was an asshole. I put the timeline up above this post (I just re-watched the series). You guys have a totally skewed memory of these events.

Its shocking how much of an asshole Jesse was. He began stealing Meth from Gus for no reason. He sold it...for no reason. He pushed his friend to be a target for the Cartel for...no reason. Then he blamed his anger at Combos death on some more noble excuse (The fact that the cartel guys used a kid), so he wouldn't have to reveal how the altercation began. Then he goes to kill the guys anyway, and Walt saves him.

And Walt asks Jesse to go kill Gale to keep both of them alive because Jesse got them into deep shit. Afterwords Walt begins planning to take out Gus because he's smart enough to know Gus will kill them eventually. And Jesse fucks Walt over because Walt is honest with him and tells Jesse that Gus is setting things up to manipulate Jesse against Walt (Which is...literally exactly what he was doing). Walt was the only one NOT manipulating Jesse. And its why Jesse went with Mike, because Mike and Gus WERE manipulating him.
 

Lithose

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I'll do you the favor Chuk



That was after Hank beat Jesse up hoping he'd give up Heisenberg. And Jesse didn't.


You actually watched this scene and remember the context right?

Jesse was trying to force his way back into the business 2 episodes before this. Walt gave him half the money from their original cook and told him "No, you're out"--because he was a massive fuck up (And Walt was becoming really good friends with Gale--they were both real chemistry geeks and liked each other, Walt was actually...happy). Jesse, being a belligerent asshole, decides he's going to cook without Walt. He goes and gets the old RV, leading Hank and the DEA right to it. Walt SAVES Jesse because he's tipped off about Hank being onto Jesse (Walt wasn't beings selfless here though, he was afraid Jesse would lead the DEA back to him). He locks Jesse and himself in the RV and calls Hank to tell him his wife got into an accident. Hank runs off, and they are able to destroy the RV before Hank can nail Jesse. Afterwords, Hank beats Jesse's ass.

Nothing in this chain of events was Walt's fault, it was solely Jesse's fault. Walt warned him not to try and cook because he wasn't good at this, he always fucked up everything. But Jesse did anyway, and of course fucked things up and subsequently Jesse just blamed Walt because he's a child that can't accept his own mistakes (Because of course its Walt fault even though Walt had nothing to do with it, because Walt was "around" and bad things happened.) In order to protect Hank from Jesse pressing charges, Walt agrees to take Jesse on as a partner and fire Gale (The guy who Walt actually likes). He also, in the end of the scene you linked, tosses aside his pride and praises Jesse for how well he cooks.

Once more, Jesse was acting like a HUGE asshole through this entire arc. But because Aaron Paul is a great actor that can play a victim so well, people forget about the context and only see the effect. And I get it, Jesse acts like a kid--its terrible to see him suffering, but that's how he manipulates people. In most cases, Jesse is the primary agitator and brings the consequences onto himself, and then like an asshole kid blames his Daddy for not helping him enough. Almost everything bad that happens to Jesse up until Halfway through Season 4 is because Jesse is an asshole. And then Jesse ALWAYS blames the consequences on someone else. You guys all seem to have accepted what Jesse said was the reason, rather than simply watched what was actually the reason. Jesse is a junkie with zero responsibility and no principles (He puts on a big emotional display of how he suffers for his principles but when push comes to shove he abandons them instantly to do what he wants). He gravitates to whatever makes him feel powerful. He's the stupid version of Walt, except Walt is actually fastidious and responsible while Jesse has no self control at all.
 
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Kiroy

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You actually watched this scene and remember the context right?

Jesse was trying to force his way back into the business 2 episodes before this. Walt gave him half the money from their original cook and told him "No, you're out"--because he was a massive fuck up (And Walt was becoming really good friends with Gale--they were both real chemistry geeks and liked each other, Walt was actually...happy). Jesse, being a belligerent asshole, decides he's going to cook without Walt. He goes and gets the old RV, leading Hank and the DEA right to it. Walt SAVES Jesse because he's tipped off about Hank being onto Jesse (Walt wasn't beings selfless here though, he was afraid Jesse would lead the DEA back to him). He locks Jesse and himself in the RV and calls Hank to tell him his wife got into an accident. Hank runs off, and they are able to destroy the RV before Hank can nail Jesse. Afterwords, Hank beats Jesse's ass.

Nothing in this chain of events was Walt's fault, it was solely Jesse's fault. Walt warned him not to try and cook because he wasn't good at this, he always fucked up everything. But Jesse did anyway, and of course fucked things up and subsequently Jesse just blamed Walt because he's a child that can't accept his own mistakes. In order to protect Hank from Jesse pressing charges, Walt agrees to take Jesse on as a partner and fire Gale (The guy who Walt actually likes). He also, in the end of the scene you linked, tosses aside his pride and praises Jesse for how well he cooks.

Once more, Jesse was acting like a HUGE asshole through this entire arc. But because Aaron Paul is a great actor that can play a victim so well, you guys simply forgot about the context and only see the effect. Almost everything bad that happens to Jesse up until Halfway through Season 4 is because Jesse is an asshole. And then Jesse ALWAYS blames the consequences on someone else. You guys all seem to have accepted what Jesse said was the reason, rather than simply watched what was actually the reason. Jesse is a junkie with zero responsibility and no principles. He gravitates to whatever makes him feel powerful. He's the stupid version of Walt, except Walt is actually fastidious and responsible while Jesse has no self control at all.

he also had a Freudian 'the son I always wanted' fantasy about him because he deep down hated the fact he spawned a disabled child, which is why jessie kept getting second chances even though walt knew it would continually bite him in the has, hence the massive manipulation to try to keep his psychological obsession with having a relationship with jessie from killing him

This show is about one thing, walt violently taking control of his life by any means neccessary, and never letting himself get fucked over again, and jessie was a part of that
 
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Lanx

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he also had a Freudian 'the son I always wanted'

more like the broken son he could fix. his derpy kid is always gonna be that way, no matter how hard he tried everyday of his life.

jessie was always a fuck up, he recognized his fucked up face when he jumped out the window during the drug raid, but he's like "this fuck up, i can fix"
 

Khane

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You actually watched this scene and remember the context right?

Jesse was trying to force his way back into the business 2 episodes before this. Walt gave him half the money from their original cook and told him "No, you're out"--because he was a massive fuck up (And Walt was becoming really good friends with Gale--they were both real chemistry geeks and liked each other, Walt was actually...happy). Jesse, being a belligerent asshole, decides he's going to cook without Walt. He goes and gets the old RV, leading Hank and the DEA right to it. Walt SAVES Jesse because he's tipped off about Hank being onto Jesse (Walt wasn't beings selfless here though, he was afraid Jesse would lead the DEA back to him). He locks Jesse and himself in the RV and calls Hank to tell him his wife got into an accident. Hank runs off, and they are able to destroy the RV before Hank can nail Jesse. Afterwords, Hank beats Jesse's ass.

Nothing in this chain of events was Walt's fault, it was solely Jesse's fault. Walt warned him not to try and cook because he wasn't good at this, he always fucked up everything. But Jesse did anyway, and of course fucked things up and subsequently Jesse just blamed Walt because he's a child that can't accept his own mistakes (Because of course its Walt fault even though Walt had nothing to do with it, because Walt was "around" and bad things happened.) In order to protect Hank from Jesse pressing charges, Walt agrees to take Jesse on as a partner and fire Gale (The guy who Walt actually likes). He also, in the end of the scene you linked, tosses aside his pride and praises Jesse for how well he cooks.

Once more, Jesse was acting like a HUGE asshole through this entire arc. But because Aaron Paul is a great actor that can play a victim so well, people forget about the context and only see the effect. And I get it, Jesse acts like a kid--its terrible to see him suffering, but that's how he manipulates people. In most cases, Jesse is the primary agitator and brings the consequences onto himself, and then like an asshole kid blames his Daddy for not helping him enough. Almost everything bad that happens to Jesse up until Halfway through Season 4 is because Jesse is an asshole. And then Jesse ALWAYS blames the consequences on someone else. You guys all seem to have accepted what Jesse said was the reason, rather than simply watched what was actually the reason. Jesse is a junkie with zero responsibility and no principles (He puts on a big emotional display of how he suffers for his principles but when push comes to shove he abandons them instantly to do what he wants). He gravitates to whatever makes him feel powerful. He's the stupid version of Walt, except Walt is actually fastidious and responsible while Jesse has no self control at all.

Maybe I'm conflating Jesse in S4. Anyway, what I was saying was S3 was tough to watch because everyone was a miserable asshole with no redeeming qualities and I thought Jesse had a redemption arc toward the end but it's been a really long time since I watched so maybe there were literally no characters worth rooting for at any point in that entire season.

EDIT: Though wasn't his belligerent behavior towards Walt to do with him suspecting Walt of letting his gf die in S2 and starting to realize Walt was a monster? Yea.... I really need to go back and watch this show because I don't remember it nearly as clearly as I thought I did.
 
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chaos

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You guys have such a skewed memory of these events. Walt had to fire Gale because Jesse was fucking Walt over and demanding back in the business. After Jesse got back in, he began fucking everything up.

Jesse didn't freak out when he saw they were using kids as dealers. Jesse freaked out because Combo got killed, and then he learned a kid spotted for the killers and used that as an excuse so he wouldn't have to admit he stole the drugs. Gus then killed the kid to try and keep Walt from protecting Jesse by luring Jesse to attack the dealers, and instead of Walt allowing Jesse to die for being a belligerent self destructive asshole, Walt doubled down and was loyal and killed the dealers for Jesse.

Then Mike set up a couple nice incidents for Jesse to shine in, and Jesse immediately abandons Walt to side with the mother fucker he was supposedly so furious at that he had to blow everything up just a season before because "he hurt children" (I guess that stopped matter when Gus said some nice things to him; that's literally all it took to get Jesse to stop caring about the "harming" children--Mike and Gus stroking his ego.). So after Jesse destroyed EVERYTHING because he was a belligerent asshole, he betrayed the man who saved him and ignored all the supposed "principles" he claimed lead him to being such an asshole.

Jesse was a piece of shit.
That isnt exactly how it went down. Walt fired Gale to get Jesse back in, Jesse wasnt pressuring him except that instead of just taking the money and running he was determined to set up shop for himself in the aftermath of the beating Hank gave him. Jesse wasn't stealing meth until after that. And it was specifically finding out about Andrea's brother killing Combo then finding how the kids were being used that sparked Jesse to confront Walt and then Gus over the use of kids. That situation itself was complicated as well, Walt betrayed Jesse's confidence, but he did it to help him, but it was a naive move because he didnt really understand Gus and Mike. (Some might have even called it a half measure HO HO HO...)

With Mike and Jesse, yes it was contrived, at least at first. Yes, their intent was to wedge between them. Which Walt played into perfectly by demeaning Jesse when he approached him about it. Walt wanted to play the father figure, then Walt got outplayed at that by Mike and Gus. They were just better at it, and Jesse responded to their mentorship in a way he never really did with Walt, which hurt Walts feelings, led to him digging his hole further.
 
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Chukzombi

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Maybe I'm conflating Jesse in S4. Anyway, what I was saying was S3 was tough to watch because everyone was a miserable asshole with no redeeming qualities and I thought Jesse had a redemption arc toward the end but it's been a really long time since I watched so maybe there were literally no characters worth rooting for at any point in that entire season.

EDIT: Though wasn't his belligerent behavior towards Walt to do with him suspecting Walt of letting his gf die in S2 and starting to realize Walt was a monster? Yea.... I really need to go back and watch this show because I don't remember it nearly as clearly as I thought I did.
Jesse has good guy stages from time to time, but it's only a facade because everything he touches turns to shit or was shit to begin with. A lot of you guys think because Jesse cried A lot like a little baby that it means he was sorry bad things happened or was trying to break out and be normal because everyone is against him. Reality is Jesse is all about Jesse and all his motivations stemmed from his own needs.
 

Fight

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You loons went fucking crazy up in this thread.

It is a work of fiction. If Jesse is a dumb-ass and fucks up, it is because it brings conflict and tension to the narrative. That is how you do fiction, Conflict --> Resolution --> Revelation/Discovery --> Repeat.
 
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spronk

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I think I may go back and do a rewatch thanks to the new life in this thread.

i've been rewatching a few weeks now for El Camino, the first two seasons are really bad. Lots and lots and lots of slow moments and a lot of Skyler/Walt talking. I enjoyed it much more basically after I started fast forwarding whenever Skyler or Marie were on screen.

Looking back its kind of crazy the show made it to season 3, although Gus, Uncle Tio and Mike in season 2 really bring it up a big notch.
 
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chaos

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You loons went fucking crazy up in this thread.

It is a work of fiction. If Jesse is a dumb-ass and fucks up, it is because it brings conflict and tension to the narrative. That is how you do fiction, Conflict --> Resolution --> Revelation/Discovery --> Repeat.
How.... dare... you...
1y1b3y.jpg
 
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TheBeagle

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Walt's butthurt had nothing to do with it. Walt was in a massive war with Gus and his life was on the line, and Jesse was the key to turning it around because Jesse was close to Gus. Walt couldn't let Jesse have that because Jesse was a judas little cunt that fucked over everyone and then decided to swap sides.

This is the chain of events that lead to Walt not allowing Jesse to leave. You tell me where Walt did anything to 'trap' Jesse in this shit show until Jesse already dug his own grave, and then wanted to abandon Walt after Walt jumped in to save him.
He fucking fake poisoned Jesse's girlfriend's little boy and and then set it up so Jesse would think Fring did it. All because he was butthurt that Fring, Mike, and Jesse were all doing well WITHOUT him. Just like the biochem billionaires. It was Walt's butthurt fucking ego that killed everyone on that show and put Jesse in that pit.

If Walt would have ridden into the sunset with his $30 million then stupid Jesse would have had a low key, successful (relative term here) career cooking for Gus while Mike and Gus kept the business running on the downlow. But no, he couldn't just take his winnings, buy a ranch in Montana, and go have a happy life with his family. He had to burn it all down to show everyone how important the mighty Heisenberg was.
 
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TheBeagle

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Well fuck, I guess I'mma turn Netflix back on for a month to rewatch BB, catch the new Mindhunter, and the new BB movie.