Breaking Bad

Lanx said:

he was only doing well b/c Gus and Mike setup events to mold Jesse.

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TheBeagle said:

Jesse was a dumb kid that was in way over his head. He eventually grew into a solid man (in terms of the show). Is everyone forgetting how well he was doing after Mike took him under his wing? Mike obviously saw something worthwhile in him and I would say he was pretty good at sizing people up. The Fring's revenge episode in Mexico proves that Mike was right about him.

Walt and his neverending butthurt ego couldn't let Jesse have that though. He had to take him away from Fring and put him back on the path that ended with Jesse in a pit and Mike with a bullet in his stomach.

Walt had no humanity by the end of the show and I'm not sure he EVER had any humanity.

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TheBeagle said:

Jesse was a dumb kid that was in way over his head. He eventually grew into a solid man (in terms of the show). Is everyone forgetting how well he was doing after Mike took him under his wing? Mike obviously saw something worthwhile in him and I would say he was pretty good at sizing people up. The Fring's revenge episode in Mexico proves that Mike was right about him.

Walt and his neverending butthurt ego couldn't let Jesse have that though. He had to take him away from Fring and put him back on the path that ended with Jesse in a pit and Mike with a bullet in his stomach.

Walt had no humanity by the end of the show and I'm not sure he EVER had any humanity.

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chaos said:

Walt manipulated Jesse over and over to keep him in the subservient "mentee" position. Walt drew both of them further and further down this rabbit hole of degeneracy and greed, in the end not even because of any real need just because of his own hubris. The repeated theme of the show is the increasing costs they continue to pay for their actions. Jesse wasnt in a great place to begin with, and each action took its toll on him. He acted out at times, acted rashly, I dont think that's unrealistic or even uncalled for. Walt, on the other hand, is kind of a sociopath. He completely blew his life up because he was too proud to ask for help, too entitled to accept his life as is. He ruined the lives of countless people, including his own children. And I'd argue theres a reading of that ending that he never really grew past that, he died mired in that shit even if he did one redeeming thing in saving Jesse. It isnt as if this could have been a story about a couple of successful upstarts if Jesse had just sucked it up and worked with the white supremacists and Walt, or if Jesse had just kept his head down in Gus' lab and done his 8 hours a day. The things they were doing were horrible, they were horrible people.

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TheBeagle said:

Jesse was a dumb kid that was in way over his head. He eventually grew into a solid man (in terms of the show). Is everyone forgetting how well he was doing after Mike took him under his wing? Mike obviously saw something worthwhile in him and I would say he was pretty good at sizing people up. The Fring's revenge episode in Mexico proves that Mike was right about him.

Walt and his neverending butthurt ego couldn't let Jesse have that though. He had to take him away from Fring and put him back on the path that ended with Jesse in a pit and Mike with a bullet in his stomach.

Walt had no humanity by the end of the show and I'm not sure he EVER had any humanity.

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Chukzombi said:

a thing i said throughout the latter seasons was there are no "good guys" on this show, even Hank who is literally supposed to be a "good guy" due to his profession was as bad a person as Walt with his arrogance and flaunting of the law. skylar and marie were criminals as well. when everyone is a criminal it becomes diffiult to compare one's bad deeds to another. did walt manipulate Jesse? yes, but not as much as you may think. Jesse was coasting through life as an established dope dealer/junkie before Walt ever approached him about cooking. Walt merely harnessed what was already present. jesse was alway broken. lets not kid ourselves

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chaos said:

Dude, Walt definitely manipulated Jesse as much as I think. Their relationship transcended the criminal acts they were a part of, and at every stage Walt was there undermining Jesse, manipulating him, generally being a scummy dude. Whether Jesse was an addict outlaw dealer before he met Walt or not, that doesn't absolve Walt of his own actions, nor does it mean that Jesse wasn't redeemable. So was Walt, at some point.

So there's a distinction to be made. Skylar and Marie committed crimes. No doubt. But they aren't criminals in the same way that Walt or Jesse or Gus or Mike are criminals. And guys like Hank, he had flaws, he isn't superman, but he isn't comparable to them. I mean, try and gauge the amount of societal damage that Walt did. Between the murders and poisoning and other assorted violence and the drugs and the enabling of other groups/people, it's insane how big it really got. Compare that to Hank... being an asshole sometimes? Making shitty beer? Pressing Jesse in interrogation? It isn't comparable.

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Khane said:

That was kind of the point of the show though. To make the audience consider the sliding scale of evil and how people who were otherwise normal members of society, or minor criminals may change over time due to circumstance and false beliefs. Especially when presented with monetary gain and/or notoriety.

There was a point in time during S3 where Jesse was honestly the only character in the show worth rooting for. If there was anyone worth rooting for at all. That season of BB was so outrageous that there were almost no redeemable qualities in ANY of the characters and they were all miserable to watch.

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Khane said:

Oh good, let's pick one clip from one episode and pretend that was the entirety of the season and that Khane didn't say "There was a point in time" but instead said "All of S3 Jesse was the best"

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Lanx said:

yea, remember how blissful Walt felt working w/ Gale? a fucking real Professional relationship!!!

i forget who fucks that up, it was either jessie or hank

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Chukzombi said:

i guess we'll have to disagree. Walt wanted no part of Jesse after he hooked up with Gus. Walt tried several times to get away from him because Jesse was a liability for Walt as well. Hank who yes made shitty beer and tricked Jesse, he also stormed into his home and brutally beat the fuck out of him. he also brutally beat the fuck out of an entire bar. he also used his position to get friends and family out of trouble with the law. he also committed illegal searches. yes, that hank. i know it ties everything into a neat little bow by saying that Walt was the big bad of the show and everyone else was just minor criminals who didnt really do anything unforgivable. i guess if you compare a mass murderer to somebody who merely killed his wife and her lover after catching them in the act one doesnt seem as bad as the other. still both people did bad things and nobody is exempt from blame. Jesse was a bad person, he just whined a lot more than Walt.

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