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Mist

Mist

REEEEeyore
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Arbitrary_sl said:
Do you think that if we took a bunch of 6 month old babies and reassigned their sexes using surgery and hormone therapy and raised them as that gender they would self-identify as that gender?
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No one is ever going to let you do that research, so it's not testable so talking about it isn't science.

But yes, if you want to talk about complete hypotheticals, with enough hormones, sure. Weren't you guys the ones linking articles stating that most of the structural differences in the brain are caused by hormones?
 
Arbitrary

Arbitrary

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Excuse me?

In the soft sciences in which this discussion inhabits there are these things you may have heard of. They are called "case studies." While not without their flaws they are a kind of research that is regularly done, especially in situations that would prevent other forms of experimentation. For you to just discard this entire form of research is laughable and you have made yourself a joke in doing so.

Let's talk about something different but related. There are some children that are born with ambiguous genitalia. It used to be that the default was just to feminize the genitalia and raise the child as female. Oddly enough that one-size-fits-all strategy ended up being pretty shit a bunch of the time because (newsflash) human sexuality is actually more complicated than some surgery and a dress. Due to in part to progress made by the transgender community (you know, those people you consistently throw under the bus) we don't auto-fem the kid born with a micro-penis quite so much.

Mist_sl said:
with enough hormones, sure.
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No amount of hormones, therapy, surgery, or upbringing could make a baby boy into a baby girl. Human sexuality is just more complicated than that.
 
Mist

Mist

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But hormones are the basis of 90% of the biological argument. You're destroying almost all of the support for your own argument, and you've got no data. You can say its more complicated but its yet another faith-based argument.

As for the rest of your argument, you're still talking about outliers who are going to have fucked up sexuality regardless. Whatever genetic abnormalities caused them to have ambiguous genitalia could also have flipped all sorts of random switches elsewhere with regards to mirroring social behaviors, sexual reward centers, or anything else.

Case studies are case studies. Any clinical psychologist can point you to a dozen twin studies that says they might have fucking psychic powers. That doesn't make them science.

If you're really that interested in this shit go get a BA in psych. These are the same arguments we had in class over and over again for years, except some of the people there actually knew what they were talking about.
 
Quaid

Quaid

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Mist_sl said:
Men would have been perfectly happy hanging out in the jungle killing shit all day if women hadn't manipulated them into building a civilization to better protect the women and the offspring.
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Sorry, which school do you teach at?
 
Quaid

Quaid

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Mist_sl said:
But hormones are the basis of 90% of the biological argument.
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Not at 6 months old they aren't. The pie is out of the oven. You can't just structurally change an area of the already formed brain via hormones. That'd be like using hormones to grow a third arm. To reverse biological gender assignment you'd have to manipulate hormone levels long before birth, and that's the whole point you're missing, and have been missing, for dozens of pages.

It's pretty agonizing.
 
Mist

Mist

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Quaid_sl said:
Not at 6 months old they aren't. The pie is out of the oven. You can't just structurally change an area of the already formed brain via hormones. That'd be like using hormones to grow a third arm. To reverse biological gender assignment you'd have to manipulate hormone levels long before birth, and that's the whole point you're missing, and have been missing, for dozens of pages.

It's pretty agonizing.
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And what you're missing is that prenatal hormone levels are influenced by all sorts of external factors as well. Also the fact that neurobiologists can't even get their story straight on how prenatal hormone levels effect gender and sexuality. There's plenty evidence that it hassomesignificant effect but there's lots of conflicting evidence on what levels of what hormones actually correspond to what outcomes, making the whole thing look like a wash when they can't actually figure it out.

And what's agonizing for me is that you guys seem to think the 9 months in the womb outweigh 20+ years of exposure to societal influence.
 
Mist

Mist

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Arbitrary_sl said:
With enough hormones you can turn a six month old baby boy into a baby girl

-Mist
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Okay, hormonesandpretty dresses. And I never said you could turn them into a girl, but you could get them to adopt all sorts of social behaviors and thought patterns associated with girls. They're going to be fucked up regardless.

And I refuse to be politically correct. Transgenderism meets the very definition of maladaptive.
 
Arbitrary

Arbitrary

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Wait, the argument is now about which outweighs the other? Since when? I'm pretty sure this argument is about your position that biological factors are so small as to effectively be moot versus they are in factnotso small as to be effectively moot.
 
Mist

Mist

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This argument is about the fact that while those gender studies people were really terrible at arguing their case in the 'documentary,' the evidence presented against them was so far from being anything significant that it wasn't worth talking about. And this is from someone that thinks gender studies is a crock of fucking shit.

Now excuse me, I've been moving furniture all day for my psychotic mother, who is somehow mad at me about how it came out despite me putting everything exactly where she told me to. So now I'm going go eat peanut butter out of the jar for 'dinner' and pass out until sometime tomorrow.
 
Mist

Mist

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It's self-limiting to a spoonful, I'm not going to put the dirty spoon back in the jar. That's gross. And I'm too lazy to dirty multiple spoons. It's going to be one glorious spoonful though.
 
iannis

iannis

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Mist_sl said:
None of this argument even hasanythingto do with clinical psychology. Clinical psychology is the treatment of disorder. This is all academic psychology.
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Oh that is painfully disingenuous when you are directly promoting social policy. Painfully.

You don't get todothat.

You're right though. It's not science.
 
Jive Turkey

Jive Turkey

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Mist_sl said:
Men would have been perfectly happy hanging out in the jungle killing shit all day if women hadn't manipulated them into building a civilization to better protect the women and the offspring.
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Agriculture is the reason for civilization, but I guess when everything is a nail...
 
Araysar

Loser Araysar

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Mist_sl said:
Yeah, I have that on my office door, because I have a degree in stats.
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Statistics is even more bullshit than psychology. You can take that off your "door" i.e. cubicle wall now
 
Mist

Mist

REEEEeyore
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iAnus_sl said:
Oh that is painfully disingenuous when you are directly promoting social policy. Painfully.

You don't get todothat.

You're right though. It's not science.
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What social policy? And you don't get to throw words around like 'clinical psychology' when you don't even know what that means. Clinical psychology is when you go see a therapist or when you get locked up in a mental institution. Absolutely nothing to do with this topic.
 
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