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Caliane

Caliane

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Celestein_sl said:
As a professional CS educator, I'd agree that the mixed nature of the introduction classes is actually a serious problem. Roughly half my intro students are basically completely new and and the rest have a mixed backgrounds of being hobbyist programmers.

I also frequently teach another course, which is an introduction course to programming required by communications majors(and different than the CS one), and it's a world of difference. In that class, virtually everyone is starting at ground zero, and it makes my lesson plans much easier, more consistent, and I can say with great confidence that the people who take the non-CS intro course, finish further ahead of the non-programmers who take the regular CS introduction course. Unrelated but I'm actually writing a book that targets this audience, since it's pretty under-served ("Introduction to CS for Reluctant Programmers").

The problem basically boils down to this, in the first class, you as an educator have to play a balancing act. You can't outpace the beginners, but you can't go slow enough to bore to death the hobbyists. If you go too far in either direction, roughly 1/3 of the class will just bomb out because their needs are not being met(and that reflects badly on you, the professor).

I've done it enough times that I would say there is no way to properly balance this dilemma. I've been advocating for awhile that we should split our first 6 introduction sequence into two tracks not THAT dissimilar to what that university is trying. Except that I think they should be separate tracks that just meet further into the program, and not segregation inside of the existing classes.
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two separate classes/programs for each would make sense, and I wouldn't have a problem with that. That is already standard fare for many things.
Segregation within a class I absolutely have a problem with. Two people in the same class getting a different education is pretty ridiculous.
 
Mist

Mist

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lendarios_sl said:
This statement is full of feelings and no substance. The majority of innovation is indeed performed by similar types of people within the same field. Having different educations serve little when u have to solve a technical problem. In fact it will make the other people that are not technical useless.
We are not talking about mundane task, we are talking about highly specialized tasking here.
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Spend 40+ pages arguing that men and women have different brains. Then denies that having different brains look at the same problem has benefits.

Fucking perfect.
 
Mist

Mist

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Caliane_sl said:
two separate classes/programs for each would make sense, and I wouldn't have a problem with that. That is already standard fare for many things.
Segregation within a class I absolutely have a problem with. Two people in the same class getting a different education is pretty ridiculous.
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Eh, sometimes you have to. My earliest Stats classes had to be broken up into people who had Excel/Minitab experience and people who didn't, because they people who did have experience with the software were trying to tell the other people how to just macro everything, causing them not to learn anything, while the Excel wizards were also not learning much of the underlying math themselves. It was kind of a clusterfuck, but it was being taught by a professor who had never taught a software oriented math class before either.

There's a reason technology in education is such a rocky mix. People have very different rates of exposure and to technology and also adoption curves with regards to technology, and the people who are best with the technology aren't necessarily those who have the best ability to understand the underlying concepts. So you might have someone with very high mathematical ability who's discouraged by lack of exposure to the software, or someone who's great with computers but kinda sucks at math.
 
Mist

Mist

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Arbitrary_sl said:
That's not how that goes. What happened is that the people who slogged through the imbalances and made it to the endgame would then later defend them and be opposed to change. There was not some subset of "advantaged" level 1 players.
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I'm lost. Are we talking about actual games or real life? Because in real life there are certainly people who are advantaged at level 1 for a whole variety of reasons not related to individual ability.
 
J

Jais

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Tanoomba_sl said:
The policies don't "favor certain individuals based on their gender or race", they simply create an atmosphere where more people feel welcome than otherwise would have, [
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Are people throwing actual rocks at women and "others" as they walk into science/engineering/tech class? Maybe add a scented candle? Jesus you R my J's!
 
Mist

Mist

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fanaskin_sl said:
at the end of the day it comes down to quota's
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Bullshit.

I don't understand how this issue causes otherwise smart people to go into incredible depths of the most fundamental confirmation bias errors possible.

Every time 1 non-white, non-male person gets given an opportunity they didn't "deserve" because they're non-white, non-male, it's evidence of this vast "reverse discrimination" conspiracy against white males.

When in reality, for every 1 time that happens, dozens or perhaps hundreds of times an opportunity is given to a white guy because those opportunities are being handed out by other white guys and they just "when in doubt, go with the white guy." And these cases are just magically ignored. This research has even been done. White males apply for, and eventually receive, jobs where they don't meet the required education and/or experience for at far higher rates than anyone other group.

THIS IS THE MOST BASIC DEFINITION OF CONFIRMATION BIAS, THE MOST POWERFUL OF ALL COGNITIVE BIASES. DON'T BE FUCKING STUPID. Most of you are smarter than that. (Not sure on a few of you.)
 
Tanoomba

Tanoomba

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Jais_sl said:
Are people throwing actual rocks at women and "others" as they walk into science/engineering/tech class? Maybe add a scented candle? Jesus you R my J's!
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No, nobody was throwing actual rocks at anybody. But clearly, what this experiment showed was that certain people didn't feel welcome to the program or simply weren't interested. Through a few reasonable changes, all of a sudden these same people felt welcome and developed an interest where there was none before.

The school wanted more people in the program, they got it. It's win/win from every angle. Some people speculate these changes might have a negative effect, but they have yet to specify for whom and for what reasons, which is basically "feels" at work once again.
 
Mist

Mist

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In high school some asshole threw a brick at a literally retarded girl's head. It was terrible but kinda funny. I mean, it's not like she was going to get more retarded.
 
Arbitrary

Arbitrary

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Mist_sl said:
I'm lost. Are we talking about actual games or real life? Because in real life there are certainly people who are advantaged at level 1 for a whole variety of reasons not related to individual ability.
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I was talking about games and thought you were talking about games and that you were mixing things up. I've read other shit about that very concept, the it was good enough for me badge of honor paying your dues mindset which is different than people in society just winning the birth lottery and being fine with how things are.
 
J

Jais

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Tanoomba_sl said:
No, nobody was throwing actual rocks at anybody. But clearly, what this experiment showed was that certain people didn't feel welcome to the program or simply weren't interested. Through a few reasonable changes, all of a sudden these same people felt welcome and developed an interest where there was none before.

The school wanted more people in the program, they got it. It's win/win from every angle. Some people speculate these changes might have a negative effect, but they have yet to specify for whom and for what reasons, which is basically "feels" at work once again.
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You have one warped fucking view of the world. My advice to those that didn't feel welcomed, grow up, no one cares. My advice to those who weren't interested, find something you're interested in. Your nebulous idea "reasonable changes" scares the fuck out of me.
 
Tanoomba

Tanoomba

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Jais_sl said:
You have one warped fucking view of the world. My advice to those that didn't feel welcomed, grow up, no one cares. My advice to those who weren't interested, find something you're interested in. Your nebulous idea "reasonable changes" scares the fuck out of me.
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It's like you look for reasons to be outraged.

Let me get this straight: because YOU think there was no problem to begin with, you think the whole experiment was pointless and anyone who sees otherwise has a "warped fucking view of the world". That's quite the ego you've got.

Here's what happened:
- College wants to get their Computer Science numbers up. This is a program that attracts notoriously few women. What can they do to increase the appeal of this program for females?
- After much thought and deliberation, college implements minor changes (name of the program, efforts to minimize "showing off", drawing attention to successful females in the industry, providing opportunities to make use of what is being learned in practical and productive ways, etc).
- The changes are a success! Female enrollment in Computer Science dramatically increases. The college has more CS numbers, they're happy. Many students who wouldn't have otherwise considered CS find themselves in a program they love and are doing well in, so they're happy. The curriculum itself is virtually unchanged, so students who would have been interested in CS anyway are happy. Everybody's happy.

How does this "scare the fuck out of you"? Keep in mind, the college didn't implement these changes as a result of whiny feminist complaints. They saw a problem (even if you don't), and they came up with a solution that worked and, as far as we know, had no negative effects on anybody. if you have a reason to be upset at this, by all means share it (you have yet to actually make a point). Otherwise, like so many misguided angry feminists, you have CHOSEN to see this experiment as an affront to your principles without even the most basic understanding of the situation. This is what happens when you let "feels" dictate your stance on an issue.
 
Lendarios

Lendarios

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Mist_sl said:
Spend 40+ pages arguing that men and women have different brains. Then denies that having different brains look at the same problem has benefits.

Fucking perfect.
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You are r the queen of misrepresentation. I have no problem with women in cs. I have a problem with the statement people of different background and educations can be useful to solve complex technological challenges.
 
Lendarios

Lendarios

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Your statement is full of assumptions.

First of all. They are a private college, they make the same money whether the student is enrolled in basket-weaving, vs CS. Their goal is to make money, not to provide an education.
Second, do you know how prevalent is the use of phyton is vs java? Java is the king in terms of usage among enterprises and small business, the only one that comes close is c, because of embedded software. By teaching a language and then switching to another, you are effectively losing time, as it takes a little while to switch from one language to another.

Third, in programming, you have to learn to explain and stand by your point, specially at a professional level. If you don't learn how to defend your point early on, and how to stand your ground, you will never make it pass mid level. Senior level developers have to defend their designs all the time and argue about them, all the time, and also know when to admit an idea is better than theirs. This is learned early in college, not halfway and definitely not when u start working.
 
Cad

Cad

scientia potentia est
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Who is this conversation actually has a CS degree?

/raises hand
 
Mist

Mist

REEEEeyore
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lendarios_sl said:
Your statement is full of assumptions.

First of all. They are a private college, they make the same money whether the student is enrolled in basket-weaving, vs CS. Their goal is to make money, not to provide an education.
Second, do you know how prevalent is the use of phyton is vs java? Java is the king in terms of usage among enterprises and small business, the only one that comes close is c, because of embedded software. By teaching a language and then switching to another, you are effectively losing time, as it takes a little while to switch from one language to another.

Third, in programming, you have to learn to explain and stand by your point, specially at a professional level. If you don't learn how to defend your point early on, and how to stand your ground, you will never make it pass mid level. Senior level developers have to defend their designs all the time and argue about them, all the time, and also know when to admit an idea is better than theirs. This is learned early in college, not halfway and definitely not when u start working.
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And all of these are good reasons why you shouldn't let the hobbyist programmers dominate the early classes and chase other people out, regardless of gender. Those other people might actually make better programmers at the professional level. Having an early head start on the material doesn't mean you'll be best at the end.
 
Tanoomba

Tanoomba

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lendarios_sl said:
Your statement is full of assumptions.

First of all. They are a private college, they make the same money whether the student is enrolled in basket-weaving, vs CS. Their goal is to make money, not to provide an education.
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I didn't say anything about money. I said they wanted more people in Computer Science and specifically decided to target women. I did not make any assumptions about their motivation.

lendarios_sl said:
Second, do you know how prevalent is the use of phyton is vs java? Java is the king in terms of usage among enterprises and small business, the only one that comes close is c, because of embedded software. By teaching a language and then switching to another, you are effectively losing time, as it takes a little while to switch from one language to another.
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It's an intro level course. There's nothing wrong with learning an easier language, then taking what you've learned and building on that as it applies to another programming language in future courses. Nobody comes out of an intro level course ready to program for enterprises and small businesses.

lendarios_sl said:
Third, in programming, you have to learn to explain and stand by your point, specially at a professional level. If you don't learn how to defend your point early on, and how to stand your ground, you will never make it pass mid level. Senior level developers have to defend their designs all the time and argue about them, all the time, and also know when to admit an idea is better than theirs. This is learned early in college, not halfway and definitely not when u start working.
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What does this have to do with anything? I don't understand what point you're trying to make here.

I'll ask again, who did these changes hurt and how?
 
khalid

khalid

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/raises hand (to having a CS masters)

My concerns with the program would be...
1) Changing the curriculum to Python because it is "more forgiving and practical", both of which I don't believe are true.
2) The female professors taking the students to the Grace Hopper conference.
3) Elimination of the "macho effect". If all it is, is shutting down showoffs, fine. However, that seems to very closely infringe on stopping enthusiastic class participation also. Let alone naming it the macho effect, a term pretty synonymous with loud males.

The first one is arguable. However, the second two I believe could easily result in a situation where male students felt like the curriculum and professors were biased against them. Now Mist's response would be "who cares, lol white privilege has to deal with some female privilege". However, at no point in the previous curriculum was it really biased towards males. It offered gender neutral classes and a title that was very specific to its task "intro to programming". While a woman in those classes might have felt she was behind (because of cultural expectations), at least she would not have felt the professors and the department cared less about her because she was a woman.

Those aren't "feels", Tanoomba. I think they are legitimate concerns and possible downsides to the program. I linked the article in the first place because I found it pretty interesting and the end result, absent of downsides, would be pretty awesome. However, to say that there are no downsides is offbase because the article is clearly a puff piece that didn't mention any numbers or specifics other than 10% to 40%.
 
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