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Mist

Mist

REEEEeyore
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khalid_sl said:
/raises hand (to having a CS masters)

My concerns with the program would be...
1) Changing the curriculum to Python because it is "more forgiving and practical", both of which I don't believe are true.
2) The female professors taking the students to the Grace Hopper conference.
3) Elimination of the "macho effect". If all it is, is shutting down showoffs, fine. However, that seems to very closely infringe on stopping enthusiastic class participation also. Let alone naming it the macho effect, a term pretty synonymous with loud males.

The first one is arguable. However, the second two I believe could easily result in a situation where male students felt like the curriculum and professors were biased against them. Now Mist's response would be "who cares, lol white privilege has to deal with some female privilege". However, at no point in the previous curriculum was it really biased towards males. It offered gender neutral classes and a title that was very specific to its task "intro to programming". While a woman in those classes might have felt she was behind (because of cultural expectations), at least she would not have felt the professors and the department cared less about her because she was a woman.

Those aren't "feels", Tanoomba. I think they are legitimate concerns and possible downsides to the program. I linked the article in the first place because I found it pretty interesting and the end result, absent of downsides, would be pretty awesome. However, to say that there are no downsides is offbase because the article is clearly a puff piece that didn't mention any numbers or specifics other than 10% to 40%.
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Actually pretty much the definition of feels.

But as has been established in this thread: White male feels and anecdotes = facts, while everyone else need a fucking bibliography.
 
khalid

khalid

Unelected Mod
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Mist_sl said:
Actually pretty much the definition of feels.
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No, the definition of "feels" in the context of this thread, is you dismissing all research that disagrees with you because "feels". Remember the whole "they probably have bad R-values!"? Pointing out doubts in things that are done, but not completely dismissing everything that happens, isn't "feels".
 
Tanoomba

Tanoomba

ジョーディーすれいやー
<Banned>
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khalid_sl said:
/raises hand (to having a CS masters)

My concerns with the program would be...
1) Changing the curriculum to Python because it is "more forgiving and practical", both of which I don't believe are true.
2) The female professors taking the students to the Grace Hopper conference.
3) Elimination of the "macho effect". If all it is, is shutting down showoffs, fine. However, that seems to very closely infringe on stopping enthusiastic class participation also. Let alone naming it the macho effect, a term pretty synonymous with loud males.

The first one is arguable. However, the second two I believe could easily result in a situation where male students felt like the curriculum and professors were biased against them. Now Mist's response would be "who cares, lol white privilege has to deal with some female privilege". However, at no point in the previous curriculum was it really biased towards males. It offered gender neutral classes and a title that was very specific to its task "intro to programming". While a woman in those classes might have felt she was behind (because of cultural expectations), at least she would not have felt the professors and the department cared less about her because she was a woman.

Those aren't "feels", Tanoomba. I think they are legitimate concerns and possible downsides to the program. I linked the article in the first place because I found it pretty interesting and the end result, absent of downsides, would be pretty awesome. However, to say that there are no downsides is offbase because the article is clearly a puff piece that didn't mention any numbers or specifics other than 10% to 40%.
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1) I actually agree that it would be more practical to learn a more commonly used language, but as long as that is addressed in future courses I don't see any real harm in beginning to learn about programming in a less popular language. There are advantages to learning the differences between programming languages. It offers perspective and encourages an understanding of the underlying "logic" behind languages instead of simply memorizing the "rules" of the languages.
2) The main problem I see here is the exclusion of male professors from these excursions. I think that sends the message that men wouldn't necessarily have the same appreciation for women in technology, which is absurd. They should be trying to show that everyone can appreciate and respect women's influence in technology. If I was in the program I would enjoy that excursion as much as anyone else so I agree with you that the "this is for the girls" vibe it gives off is counter-intuitive.
3) All we can do is speculate. I still can't imagine this policy would discourage active participation. Heck, even the showoffs get a personal "Dude, you're awesome, we should totally discuss this further!" which acknowledges the showoff's skill, respects (possibly even boosts) his ego and creates greater opportunity for others to participate without alienating or discouraging anybody. Heck, worst case scenario is that the teacher accidentally gives the little speech to someone who isn't actually a showoff (which seems unlikely since recognizing someone as a showoff usually involves observing a pattern of repeated behavior), and even then it's just giving encouraging and reassuring words. If this step involved humiliating or degrading showoffs, I could easily see how that could lead to disastrous consequences, but as it stands it's a policy that should be applied toeveryclass.

I didn't accuse you of "feels"-based arguing, by the way. That last accusation was directed specifically at Mr. "My advice to those that didn't feel welcomed, grow up, no one cares. My advice to those who weren't interested, find something you're interested in" who, unlike you, had nothing to contribute to the conversation except knee-jerk righteous indignation. Unfortunately, while every comment I make is put under a microscope and thoroughly analyzed for things to criticize or contradict, the majority of the posters here can make incredibly stupid comments and never have to justify or back them up in any way. You, at least, think about what you say before you say it and prepare yourself to back up your points. Don't think that isn't appreciated.
 
khalid

khalid

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Tanoomba_sl said:
If I was in the program I would enjoy that excursion as much as anyone else so I agree with you that the "this is for the girls" vibe it gives off is counter-intuitive.
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Yeah, that is what bothered me so much about it. I would love to be given time to take my students to something like that. Then again, maybe I should consider doing something like that with my class and get forgiveness if someone complains. Could be fun.

Not to pull a Vaclav here, but my mother got her PhD in CS in 1976 (wasn't even called CS when she started the degree). She and I have talked at length about the biases amongst the majors (and cultural expectations for women and men in the sciences) and she initially wanted to be a surgeon, but switched because of the "competition" she felt she was forced into with her fellow students. Back then though, female students in CS had a leg up usually, as more women were good typers. The highschool classes for typing were generally dominated by women.
 
Lendarios

Lendarios

Trump's Staff
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After some research here is what i found about this college.
Welcome to the Harvey Mudd "Introduction to Computer Science" Course Page
This website provides resources for introducing computer science to a variety of audiences with different backgrounds and interests. The materials can be used "as-is" to teach a semester-long course or the constituent modules can be used to build new courses or integrate new concepts and applications into existing courses.
These materials were originally designed for use in a first-year college-level computer science course for science and engineering students (including prospective computer science students). To date, however, some of them have been adapted for use with high school students, humanities and social science undergraduate students, community college students, and information technology graduate students.
Background
Every first-year student at Harvey Mudd College, irrespective of their intended major, takes an introductory computer science course as part of the college's Core Curriculum.
Through 2005, the introductory computer science course was a traditional Java-based CS1 programming course. While students learned to program in Java, the course did not expose them to computer science as an intellectually rich discipline, its broad applications, and its impact on society. Thus, we redesigned the course into a new one that would:
Develop programming and problem-solving skills useful across engineering, mathematics, and the natural sciences;
Provide a coherent, intellectually compelling picture of computer science to all students; and
Capture the interests of a diverse group of students and encourage them to take additional courses in computing and pursue a computing-related major.
Our new course CS1 course, called "CS 5" at Harvey Mudd and nicknamed "CS for Scientists", has been taught since Fall 2006. Approximately 160 Harvey Mudd students take this course each fall. In addition, a substantial number of students (including non-science majors) from our sister Claremont Colleges enroll in this course each year, e.g., about 80 in fall 2012.
Some distinguishing features of this course are:
The course uses Python rather than Java. Python's relatively simple syntax permits us to spend more time teaching concepts and less time teaching syntax. Moreover, Python has relatively little "black box" syntax (e.g. "public static void main");
The course emphasizes recursion and functional-style programming concepts early and imperative and object-oriented concepts later in the course. This helps to "level the playing field" and allows students to write relatively powerful programs with relatively little syntax;
The course uses a variety of existing packages and libraries, providing students with the ability to write useful and compelling applications for web applications, scientific computing, computer graphics, among others;
In order to demystify the inner workings of a computer, the course includes a module on digital logic, the von Neumann architecture, and assembly language programming;
In order to provide students with a sense of some of the intellectual challenges in the field, the course gently exposes students to theoretical ideas including analysis of algorithms, intractability, and uncomputability; and
The course provides a wide array of application areas, some choices of problems, and a choice of capstone project at the end of the term.
There are currently three versions of this course:
CS 5 "Gold" (our school colors are Gold and Black) is designed for students with no prior computing background
CS 5 "Black" is designed for students with some prior computing background (e.g. self-taught programming or a high school programming course)
CS 5 "Green" is designed for students with an interest in the applications of computing to the biosciences
While the majority of our students take CS 5 "Gold", all three versions of the course provide the same foundational computing content and prepare students to enter our second computer science course. Rather than exploring additional computer science topics, CS 5 "Black" examines additional application areas (e.g. in cryptography and steganography and computer graphics) while CS 5 "Green" uses biology as its context rather than the broader context in the sciences and engineering that are used in CS 5 "Gold" and "Black".
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It seems to me that they do separate the introductory classes by skill level. Also since it is a required course for anyone on this college, I'm ok to making it easier for everyone, as it is a core requirement for other non CS classes.
 
ZyyzYzzy

ZyyzYzzy

RIP USA
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What are the odds a little hood rat Tanoomba teaches proper English to would ever enroll in a CS BS or MS program?
 
iannis

iannis

Musty Nester
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It reminds me of something I heard on the radio. Some canadian dipshit actually wrote a book on Brunch, and how it's an institution of vile horribleness. And he wrote a BOOK about it. And he kept droning on in the interview about how it's an expression of all of societies ills and objective evil.

And here I am thinking... you know... most people would just say "Brunch is stupid" and then not have brunch. But I guess I'm the asshole.
 
Mist

Mist

REEEEeyore
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No, instead that they deserve to be subservient sex objects. That's so much better! (actually it's worse.)
 
Kirun

Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor
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Araysar_sl said:
so you think 2 wrongs make a right?
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Are you surprised? This is Female Debate Tactics 101. Rather than address the objective point being made, distract the issue and point out how X(usually men)are just as bad, or worse.
 
Mist

Mist

REEEEeyore
<Gold Donor>
31,202
23,387
Kirun_sl said:
Are you surprised? This is Female Debate Tactics 101. Rather than address the objective point being made, distract the issue and point out how X(usually men)are just as bad, or worse.
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Or you could stop being a whiny idiot and learn to take a joke.
 
iannis

iannis

Musty Nester
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No one gets to jerk off to internet rape porn and pretend like there's a moral high ground to be standing on here.

If the girls want to pow wow and talk about how men are only good for one thing and maybe eventually someone can figure out what that one thing is then more power to them. I have every ability to just leave the room and go look at my rape porn.
 
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