Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...

First we were bad people for dismissing her and now we are bad people for trying to silence her? Let's stick to the first one. At least that is something we are actually doing.

Tanoomba_sl said:

I swear, it's like there are some topics you guys just have a HUGE blind spot for and discussing them rationally is completely impossible because you refuse to take off your "the feminists are out to get me" blinders.

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Oh, so I have "the feminists are out to get me" blinders? Well, you on the other hand seem to have "if its a feminist, anything she says we should consider, even if it is filled with distortions and truth doesn't matter".

Maybe, for just one second, you should consider the fact that maybe we aren't the ones blinded. You seem to not care a wig about whether her video tells the truth or not. Whether it has lies or not. Whether it misrepresents things or lays out the facts. You simply DON'T CARE because the overall message is something you agree with. Well you know what, that means YOU have the fucking blinders on. I fucking care, because the truth fucking matters.

I get that sexism and bigotry does exist all over the place in games and definitely amongst gamers. Yet I WILL NOT agree with starting a conversation based on a video filled with misrepresentations. Just like I'm not about to have a gun control discussion with someone because they watched Bowling for Columbine.

Tanoomba_sl said:

"But... but... we just want to be able tolegitimately criticizeher! Why won't anybody listen to ourlegitimate criticismabout how this lying con artist bitch is raping children? Why does everybody keep saying we're sexist? It's not faaaaaaaiiiiiir!"

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Okay Tanoomba, who is trolling?

Going to relink the Night Trap video again



Feel pretty much the same way about the nonsense said about that game.

Tanoomba_sl said:

Who the fuck is forcing you to? Anybody is free to dismiss Sarkeesian's work outright. Just don't be surprised if your opinions of Sarkeesian's work get equally dismissed if you choose to participate in a conversation about her. You can't legitimately criticise something you have already dismissed. Which, again, is fine if you have no interest in discussing the subject. But hey! Guess what we're discussing now?

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YOU are fucking forcing me too. You and the game journalists who, when they want to talk about sexism in games, keep linking to this video filled with distortions and act like its shining some flashlight of truth on it.

Also, wtf does it mean that I can't legitimately criticize something if I have already dismissed it? That implies I dismissed it out of hand. I didn't, I dismissed it after seeing people lay out many of her distortions in the video.

Tanoomba_sl said:

best guess is becuase they are from a feminist perspective, a perspective that would have you implying she's indirectly responsible for child rape before you'll acknowledge "You know what, there are some pretty sexist representations of women in video games and this is pretty interesting, even though she's off about a few things."

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You know what, I'm really sick of trying to constantly give you the benefit of the doubt, only to see you attack me over and over again. You keep trying to act like you are the adult here, yet over and over accuse me of sexism because you disagree with me on this subject. So let me FUCKING REPEAT so MAYBE, JUST FUCKING MAYBE, you will hear me this time. I BELIEVE A CONVERSATION ON A TOPIC SHOULD BE STARTED BASED ON TRUTH, NOT BASED ON MISREPRESENTATIONS. That doesn't mean I'm sexist, or hate women, or think she is a fucking child rapist or some bullshit. Pull your head out of your ass.

You complain other people are taking the low road, well fucking read your responses to me.

Tanoomba_sl said:

Mother Theresa believed that suffering brought us closer to god. She encouraged bringing suffering upon oneself, so yeah, she was probably responsible for a lot of suffering.

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Like I said, it wasn't a perfect analogy but hopefully you got my meaning. You clearly didn't get my meaning (That you are hurting your own cause by going too far. Thereissuch a thing as too much of a good thing.). Fair enough I suppose. Whatever. I can let it go. I think most others know what I meant.

No no no you don't get to do that. I asked for an example of how videos about women in video games had a real-world negative effect on anybody and I got a bunch of feels-based bullshit. "She's taking attention away from REAL issues" is bullshit because
a) Exploring the use of sexist tropes in gaming is as valid as any topic anybody could want to talk about
b) Who the fuck is anybody here to claim authority on what constitutes "real" issues for feminists? Fucking seriously!
c) Anybody here who has ever linked to any video ridiculing feminists or feminism (and there are many) have done more harm for feminism than Sarkeesian
d) The rational, intelligent and open-minded feminists I know all enjoy Sarkeesian's work and have found nothing to harm the feminist cause therein
e) You're implying that one can only make a feminist video if it explores a pre-approved list of topics, otherwise it's a non-issue that hurts the cause
Here's another reason people will "unfairly" consider you sexist if you try to argue like this: It's fucking stupid. It looks like you're grasping at straws, desperately looking for ways to justify crucifying a woman who made videos about theportrayal of women in video games. I mean, implying she's indirectly responsible for child rape? I can't make that shit up.
I swear, this was a pretty good conversation up to this point but I'm starting to think everyone except Lithose is just trolling me here. I have never seen such shitty arguing.

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I can honestly state that I am not trolling you. I am disagreeing with you. I firmly believe you to be completely incorrect. That doesn't mean I think you are a fag or a troll or a loser or an idiot. It means that I think you are wrong. Of course I can't speak for everyone else here, but I can speak for myself. You seem to be a good person with a good heart. You just seem to have been misguided somewhere along the line. Not misguided of theprinciplesof feminism, but of the details andapplicationof it.

Sarkeesian is to feminism what Sharpton is to racism. (that is: counterproductive)

They claim, on the surface, to be against these things. But their actions are of the MOST devious nature imaginable. They are both practicing soft bigotry. Soft bigotry trumps hard bigotry any day of the week and twice on Sundayspreciselybecause it purports itself to be an agentforthe very people it denigrates. It is, in a single word;.... insidious.

It is up to us, which includes you, to stop victimizing women and start empowering them. I know that that line is lost on you. I know it is. But maybe someday it will make sense. Maybe someday you will see that the worst decision any human can make, no matter what race or gender, is the decision to create a persona of victimhood for themselves. I don't know how to flip that switch directly in people. I just know that it will, eventually, gradually, and inevitably, be switched. I hope it happens for you sooner rather than later. You seem to have a good heart. You seem to be such a good soldier. I would love to have you on my side.

Tanoomba_sl said:

I do care about the truth. In case you haven't noticed, I'm still the only person here to have leveled legitimate criticism against Sarkeesian's work (that I remember, I'd love to see other examples if there are any). I look at her videos the same way I look at this video (a surprisingly harsh critique of Ocarina of Time):

I loved OOT,loved it, but damned if I can't watch that video and think "Hey, he brings up some pretty good points." You guys can't see Sarkeesian's videos that way because... why? My best guess is becuase they are from a feminist perspective, a perspective that would have you implying she's indirectly responsible for child rape before you'll acknowledge "You know what, therearesome pretty sexist representations of women in video games and this is pretty interesting, even though she's off about a few things."

Her videos don't have any mystical power over people just because they tackle gender issues.

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Hey Sequelitis, one of my favorite series. The one about Mega-Men just might be one of my favorite game criticism videos, ever (And it will teach you a lot about great game design)........This is also a series that absolutely DESTROYS Anita's work in viewership/popularity; and in general just has a much larger impact on the gaming "scene" because even his lowest rated/viewed videos are still viewed 2-3 times more than Anita's highest (On average). And guess what, Tan? He's never in any publications or releases. When he puts a new video out, everyforumfrom Neogaf, to Escapist talks about him...but I'veneverseen an article even commenting on his work. Now, maybe there is a few. However, if there is, it's not coming in the first 10 pages of a Google search, meanwhile, you can find 2-3 dozen articles on Anita's work, and how amazing it is;fairlyeasy. (Not to mention, again, I'm a pretty voracious reader--I usually don't go more than 2 months without seeing an Article in the gaming media about Anita's work; meanwhile, I've never seen one on Sequillitis.)

So why is a muchlesspopular channel, with a more obscure personality, being exalted over a far more popular channel? And no, Tan, it's not "just sexism"; Anita's videos get plugged whether or not she is receiving threats. In fact, for a while, as Anita's views plummeted (Check her views per video after her initial release) a bunch of the media went on a binge during her releases saying how important it was to watch her videos because of how "groundbreaking" they are, and what a shame it was they weren't more popular.

So yes. In both these cases, you have two different critical interpretations of the same work--and that's fine. The problem is ONE interpretation is being signal boosted like fucking crazy because of an extreme bias in the gaming media (And actual collusion causing pressure)...Yet when this ridiculous stance is pointed out; when it's illustrated that Anita has been benefiting from said collusion, those accusations are "sexist" and the Gaming community is told, just like you're doing now, that "be an adult and just ignore her."

How about instead the gaming press act likeJournalistsand actually adhere to the principles they claim to? And even if theyobjectivelythink Anita's work needs to be covered due to it's nature as a feminist piece; then at LEAST treat her with the same criticism and scrutiny they would a male in her position. Otherwise, you are only allowing an image of feminism (And MORE importantly women in general) that makes them look like devious, hypocritical charlatans and that threatens other women who are struggling just to be taken seriously (Because any review these gamers see, any positive press--if it's about a female feminist? It will just be assumed that no matter how bad it is; it's going to be called "good". How do you think that will end up working for feminism?)

Wait... People actually still respond seriously to things Tanoomba posts?

Wizardhawk_sl said:

Wait... People actually still respond seriously to things Tanoomba posts?

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Look. We get it. Nobody cared about you so you don't care abou....

Nevermind. You're right. Of course you are.

Tanoomba_sl said:

Absolutely right. Once you can get the people insisting on dragging Sarkeesian and Quinn through the mud to back the fuck off your cause, you'll find it remarkably easier to level legitimate criticism at the gaming media. This might be hard to do, since they're the ones that drew all the attention to this issue in the first place.

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Ahh, well, since all those people of Gamergate were harassed and threatened; I then expect the media to immediately cease all criticism of Gamergate. That is how your logic works, right? Oh wait, we covered this. The application of the action of a few, against the many, is inherently whatbigotryis. Let me ask you this Tan. Most black folks, as you've said, are decent, hard working individuals right?I think so, too. But it IS true that there is a much larger prevalence of crime AND general violence within black communities, right? (And I say general violence because, even if we assume the courts are corrupt/racist; the rates of victimization are ALSO higher among minority communities in surveys, which don't rely on them).

So we can honestly say, factually I might add; black people are responsible for more of their own deaths and violence than the police. Does that make it okay to disregard any criticism of the police that black people make? I ask because that was EXACTLY the type criticism/narrative Fox News tried to make about Furgeson, and the Daily Show smacked it down (And I believe you said in regards to that segment, how amazing it was.) The fact is, disregarding the opinion of black people, just because that particular demographic has a smaller subsetwithinthat community has issues with violence/crime,isbigotry. Yet here, it's not seen as a problem because the connecting tissue of this group is gaming and not skin color.

Tanoomba_sl said:

They have associated Gamergate with sexism because Gamergate is associated with sexism. Sexism is the reason Gamergate became Gamergate. What the mainstream media is doing isn't criticizing those who want to talk about ethical breaches in journalism, but rather they're talking about sexism in the game industry. Gamergate is a great example of how disgusting sexist assholes can be, even if that isn't what Gamergate is all about (or rather, what you don't like to see it associated with). It's like if some wacko sniper climbs a bell tower and starts blowing people away as a way of protesting the inferior quantity of Canadian Netflix content over American Netflix content. The media would be all over that story (obviously), and you would be doing the equivalent of saying "Let's be fair here, despite this man's actions being clearly reprehensible, Canadian Netflix contentisinferior to American Netflix content. The media is going crazy over the killer for click bait, but why aren't they addressing this underlying truthat all? There hasn't been asingle articleabout the legitimate concerns of Netflix users. Many, many people who have never and will never snipe anybody also want this disparity addressed, and it is bias on the media's part not to give any attention to this side of the story."

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1.) WHY the Media has associated it with sexism doesn't matter; this is a straw man, Tan. I wasn't expressing the point to illustrate how the media was "wrong" for criticizing Gamergate in X way. The point was to illustrate how the media has worked up one possible narrative for Gamersgate, a negative one, but has NOT allowed the people within Gamersgate to plead their case in their own defense. (Which is, once more, required by their own ethics). IF the media finds Gamergate important enough to criticize, then by their own rules, the people within Gamergate, who are themselves being criticized, deserve a chance to respond.

2.) Even mass murderers like Charles Manson were given a chance to express their views in interviews and defend themselves. So your point is nonsense. Once more, the most REPREHENSIBLE people on the planet have been given a voice to try and offer a more complex and deeper view of any situation...People who have murdered, systemically raped, enslaved children and generally just the worst fucking humans alive. But you're saying GAMERGATE is the god damn thing that takes the cake. THAT is where the buck stops; their sexism is justBEYONDthe pale?

Come on, dude.

Tanoomba_sl said:

Well, let's make a more fair comparison: If a fringe group of radical feminists went on a spree of abuse, harassment and reprehensible behavior and THAT was the story being reported on, then no, I don't think it would be necessary to get Sarkeesian's point of view. In that case the news would not be about her, would not be about feminism, but would be about the feminist assholes doing shitty, shitty things.

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Your "fair" comparison misses an important element.The gaming media would have to have indited ALL of feminism for the actions of a few.Once more, would you be comfortable if gaming journalism was pumping out negative views offeminism(And NOT stipulating this was a fringe/radical group) 24/7 and using the Radical-Fem movement as evidence for their behavior? (And, I can find Rad Fem sites that talk about killing male children.....And genocide against men. Pretty god damn reprehensible, Tan.) If gaming journalism were full of angry, virgin neckbeards, it wouldn't be too hard for me to use those examples to begin a campaign against the whole ideology. And how infuriating would it be for you to have feminism itself denigrated consistently by the press and these examples used as justification? Once more, I remind you, YOU got upset that Tumblr and Rad-Fem idiocy was constantly used to paint Feminism as a whole in thisVERYthread. The fact is, if media were to only focus on the radicals in feminism, it would be very easy to poison a market against feminism. Which is precisely what is happening to those critical of of various things through the Gamergate movement.