Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...

Tanoomba · Sep 23, 2014

Lithose_sl said:
I'veneverseen an article even commenting on his work. Now, maybe there is a few. However, if there is, it's not coming in the first 10 pages of a Google search, meanwhile, you can find 2-3 dozen articles on Anita's work, and how amazing it is;fairlyeasy. (Not to mention, again, I'm a pretty voracious reader--I usually don't go more than 2 months without seeing an Article in the gaming media about Anita's work; meanwhile, I've never seen one on Sequillitis.)

Let's Google "Women vs Tropes". Here are the top hits on Google:
- feminist frequency (Sarkeesian's home page)
- Wikipedia article
- Youtube channel
- "Women as Background Decoration Part 2" video
- Kickstarter page
- Polygon article. Don't know if it's mainstream, but there is no fawning praise here, just a clinical description of the content of one of her videos
- TheVerge article. Don't know if it's mainstream, but there is no fawning praise here, just a clinical description of the content of one of her videos
- NewStatesman article about the portrayal of Sarkeesian on the internet. Don't know if it's mainstream, but here's the first example of praise I've found:

And, again, what Sarkeesian is doing is standard pop culture criticism, of the kind that films and books have been subjected to for decades - and TvsWVG is pretty good. It?s thorough and accessible, and it?s both a good introduction to the concept of feminist cultural criticism and an example of the increasing respect that games receive as an artform.

This is a very good article, by the way, although I already know many jimmies will be rustled about how the author addresses the Hitman example.
- tvtropes.org
- PCGamer article about Sarkeesian's harrassment. No overt praise, although it is acknowledged that she has started a conversation worth having.

You said I could find 2-3 dozen articles on how "amazing" Sarkeesian's work is "fairly easy". On the first page of Google hits (where the vast majority of Google searches begin and end) I foundoneexample of praise (that said "pretty good", not "amazing") in an article that featured plenty of alternate points of view (that was the point of the article, after all) and another article that defended her topic as worthy of attention in the face of unjustified attacks and harassment. How easy is "fairly easy"?
Also, having an interest in both her topic and the backlash it's received, I've read many articles about her, and I have rarely if ever seen anyone portray her as infallible or above criticism. I've seen no one refer to her work as "amazing", as far as I can remember. Perhaps you can show me what I'm doing wrong.

Lithose · Sep 23, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
Also, having an interest in both her topic and the backlash it's received, I've read many articles about her, and I have rarely if ever seen anyone portray her as infallible or above criticism. I've seen no one refer to her work as "amazing", as far as I can remember. Perhaps you can show me what I'm doing wrong.

Tropes vs Women Kotaku

1 2 3 4 5 6

All first page (Literally first result is a list of Kotaku articles; which I didn't even click the second page list of, but did follow one link in the first article. Also, didn't click to go to the second page of Kotaku list. 6th article was on the original google page, too. Just articles commenting on her work, or countering arguments against criticism of her work. Left out any harassment based articles.

Bonus Round! Satirizing sexism against men, while plugging Anita's workmen

Sequelitis Kotaku.

1(Note, there iscriticismof his review in this article; I only skimmed the Anita ones but I found NO criticism at all. I, however, must admit though I was pleasantly surprised to find this! I have never seen him reviewed for anything but Grumps and even then a blurb about internal drama.)

Now, there was a link with 2 articles about Gamergrumps which Egoraptor ALSO does; but only one was about their work (The other was about their break up). Since we're looking at reviews and praise (Or criticism even) of their main series? It's one link. (Again, if I included Anita's harassment stories, it would jump a bit too.)

Shall we try Polygon next?

It won't turn out differently....I think what you're doing wrong is you're not good at google, man. If you're looking fornewsstories on her work; you actually type in the news source+her series. (There are 4-5 major sources, each has about this kind of split. Like I said, 2-3 on Sequelitis; at least 2-3 dozen on Anita, especially if you're willing to go ten pages deep; which I did stipulate. And I'll remind you--Sequelitis is a about the same, or slightly larger, in terms of view count (If we count Egoraptors channel as a whole, it dwarfs Anita's.)

There really isn't any comparison here, Tan. Anita is most certainly being signal boosted (But they admitted that.)

Edit: btw, Polygon real quick. Again, just first page.

Tropes vs Women Polygon.

1 2 3 4 5(Last one is a Gamasutra that made the page /shrug).

Sequelitis Polygon.

.................................................. (Crickets)

Lendarios · Sep 23, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
Like I said already, it's also entirely possible that Sarkeesian is jaded and sees examples of sexism where others wouldn't. It's entirely possible that Sarkeesian mistakenly assumed players would be just as delighted killing strippers in Hitman as they were killing hookers in GTA. It's possible that she has someone play games for her to get her to certain points she wants to use for her videos. So yeah, her research might have been bad, but that's not the same as lying. The whole point is there are other explanations besides "she intentionally and maliciously misrepresented the game to prove her point", and to jump to that conclusion is indicative of a strong desire to discredit and dismiss her. It's lazy, it's disingenuous and it's EXACTLY what all the Zimmerman haters were doing during the Trayvon trial (yes, including me initially). They saw what, on the surface, seemed to be overwhelming evidence that supported Zimmerman being a racist and not only assumed he was guilty but actively rejected alternate scenarios in which Zimmerman's actions were justified. It turns out that what we see on the surface, even things we consider "proof" of some accusation, are not always as airtight as we initially assume.

But you know how you can avoid looking like an idiot by jumping to conclusions? By actually criticising Sarkeesian on the merits of her work itself. Like a rational, reasonable person. Crazy idea, I know.

On the first paragraph you actually criticized the merits of the work, and on the second one you criticized people for doing precisely that.

Do you know how arguments works? And how logical thought works? If the basis of your argument is incorrect, your entire argument falls apart. You don't get to say "oh but look at the rest" as if the flawed foundation doesn't exist. If not, all she is arguing is feels, without facts. It is not our fault she picked the wrong game to prove a point. That is her fault.

Cad · Sep 23, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
Did I get a demotion? Is my wife disappointed in me? Am I considering suicide? Has my life been affected in any measurable way at all? No? So what the fuck am I worried about? I wasnowhere near"harmed". I might be pissed that this guy misrepresented my product, sure, but I'm a big boy. I put my product out there knowing damn well people will be able to say whatever they want about it, good or bad. My business wasn't affected by this guy's inaccurate statement, people's perception of me as an individual hasn't been affected, literally nothing in my life has been affected.

Can't the same be said of these bitches whose videos are being criticized/attacked personally? Have any of them been killed/beaten/fired? Are any of their lesbian girlfriends disappointed in them? Etc

khalid · Sep 23, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
So you got one side of the story (the side championed and promoted by sexist assholes who want to see Sarkeesian burn) and decided their portrayal of her work was a good enough reason not to give any attention to her. Yes, Khalid, you can not legitimately criticise something you have already decided is unworthy of any of your attention. You're pulling a Roger Ebert with his "video games aren't art" rant where he admitted to not playing video games. Nobody took him seriously, either.

So again you tar everyone who rightly points out the flaws in her work as sexist or biased. Are you denying that the video is filled with misrepresentations? Hell, lets just narrow it down to the Hitman part, do you deny the presentation of the game is pretty much bullshit?

Look, you don't care about the truth of the story at all. All you care about is the "narrative", the conversation that it started. I think that is crap. If I publish a paper and it is filled with inaccuracies, I don't get to say "well, sure, but my conclusions were really interesting and it started a conversation!". Certainly any serious academic who tried to defend my paper with that argument would get eviscerated. The last thing you want to do is give someone free publicity for shoddy or misrepresented work.

This is kind of eye opening to me though. I mean, one of the caricatures of leftwing activists is they don't care at all about truth, if the narrative gives them a conclusion they like. Well, I always thought it was a caricature. Yet now I see it, plain as day, all over this story.

Also, I'm especially amused by you saying I'm Roger Ebert in all this. If anything, Anita is Ebert.

Mario Speedwagon · Sep 23, 2014

Cad_sl said:
Can't the same be said of these bitches whose videos are being criticized/attacked personally? Have any of them been killed/beaten/fired? Are any of their lesbian girlfriends disappointed in them? Etc

Using Tanoomba' logic, they're actually doing good work because these threats are literally the only reason anyone pays attention to these people. So the threats are a net positive because no real harm is done and they allow the media to "signal boost" the narrative that these people are creating.

Ridas · Sep 23, 2014

I wonder, if Tanoomba will ever understand Lithoses argument. He doesnt seem to even comprehend, what Lithose tries to argue. This is all very weird. I am scared.

Tanoomba · Sep 23, 2014

Lithose_sl said:
Tropes vs Women Kotaku

1 2 3 4 5 6

Dude, really? I checked all those links, and the greatest praise she received in any of those was "pretty good" from the article that also appeared in my Google search. The second-greatest praise she received was "There's some interesting stuff in there", from one of her video announcements. Everything else was a clinical description of the content of her videos. That's all most of these are, by the way: "Anita Sakreesian released a new video talking about the portrayal of women in video games." If you think they are obligated to criticise her just because they mentioned her (which is arguable), go ahead and say so. But don't go misrepresenting the issue by saying she's being showered with praise while not being criticised, because that's not what's happening.

Number of times "amazing" was used to describe her work inyoursearch results: 0
Apparently, it's not as easy as you thought to find 2-3 dozen examples of articles talking about how amazing her work is. You have yet to show me one.

Tanoomba · Sep 23, 2014

lendarios_sl said:
On the first paragraph you actually criticized the merits of the work, and on the second one you criticized people for doing precisely that.

Read that second paragraph again:

But you know how you can avoid looking like an idiot by jumping to conclusions? By actually criticising Sarkeesian on the merits of her work itself. Like a rational, reasonable person. Crazy idea, I know.

I'm literally and explicitly saying that the best way to criticise Sarkeesian is bydirectly criticising her work. There is no other way to interpret that statement.

Tanoomba · Sep 23, 2014

Cad_sl said:
Can't the same be said of these bitches whose videos are being criticized/attacked personally? Have any of them been killed/beaten/fired? Are any of their lesbian girlfriends disappointed in them? Etc

Tanoomba_sl said:
All right, Khalid, let's play this game: Who was harmed? "The developers"? That's pretty fucking nebulous. Can you give me any names? Was anybody fired? Demoted, even? Was anybody ostracised by their community of family and friends?Did any game developer receive death threats or harrassment as a result of Sarkeesian's videos? Did any developers get dirty looks from or get called "sexist" by complete strangers?Have any developers quit in shame? What about the companies themselves? Did game sales suffer as a result of these videos? Was any studio blackballed and sent into financial ruin? I suppose it's possible some specific developers' feelings might have been hurt. That is literally the worst possible real-world effect Sarkeesian's videos could have had on a real-world person. You say she's slandering someone, but who? If nobody is actually affected by it personally, how is any harm done? That's the equivalent of saying that a chant of "Football sucks!" is slanderous and does real-world harm to football players. Jesus fucking Christ, I don't believe you guys sometimes.

Did I stutter?

Tanoomba · Sep 23, 2014

khalid_sl said:
So again you tar everyone who rightly points out the flaws in her work as sexist or biased.

Not what I did at all.

khalid_sl said:
Are you denying that the video is filled with misrepresentations? Hell, lets just narrow it down to the Hitman part, do you deny the presentation of the game is pretty much bullshit?

There are many points she makes that I personally disagree with. I think she misinterpreted what some games were trying to do, I think she ignores the context in which certain games were made, I think she sometimes complains about things just for complaining's sake. That doesn't mean her videos are "filled with" misrepresentations. For every shitty example she uses, there are many valid and thought-provoking examples. Again, you would know this if you had watched even one of her videos. In fact, Khalid, I'm wasting my time addressing you. You're trying to prove a point you've literally only exposed yourself to one side of. Your homework assignment is to watch one of her videos (any one). Until you do that, I'm going to do what any rational person would do and dismiss your opinion about her work as worthless since you haven't yet made the bare minimum effort to understand what you're criticising.
And yes, Khalid, I'v already said multiple times that her Hitman example was a terrible one. I've already shown how to express that without sounding like a sexist asshole.

Tanoomba · Sep 23, 2014

Dr. Mario Speedwagon_sl said:
Using Tanoomba' logic, they're actually doing good work because these threats are literally the only reason anyone pays attention to these people. So the threats are a net positive because no real harm is done and they allow the media to "signal boost" the narrative that these people are creating.

The threats are not a result of Sarkeesian's work. The threats are the result of the actions of sexist assholes, something Sarkeesian had zero control over.

Tanoomba · Sep 23, 2014

Ridas_sl said:
I wonder, if Tanoomba will ever understand Lithoses argument. He doesnt seem to even comprehend, what Lithose tries to argue. This is all very weird. I am scared.

I've understood everything Lithose has said, with the exception of the paragraph I said made no sense. My disagreeing with him doesn't mean I don't understand him.

Cad · Sep 23, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
Did I stutter?

Oh ok, so internet death threats, dirty looks, and getting called sexist are the limits of the harm?

khalid · Sep 23, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
And yes, Khalid, I'v already said multiple times that her Hitman example was a terrible one. I've already shown how to express that without sounding like a sexist asshole.

Oh, so now I'm a sexist asshole? Here is my homework assignment for you. Stop assuming that everyone that disagrees with you is a sexist asshole. Believe it or not, there are plenty of reasons to disagree with the mighty Tanoomba other than being a sexist asshole.

It is at least nice that at the very end you say "her Hitman example was a terrible one". However, that is a misrepresentation. It wasn't a terrible example, it was a deliberate smear.

Tanoomba · Sep 23, 2014

Cad_sl said:
Oh ok, so internet death threats, dirty looks, and getting called sexist are the limits of the harm?

It's actual, measurable harm done to people's lives, yes.

Ridas · Sep 23, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
I've understood everything Lithose has said, with the exception of the paragraph I said made no sense. My disagreeing with him doesn't mean I don't understand him.

Hehe, maybe its the other way around then and I just dont understand you. Weirder things have happened before.

Tanoomba · Sep 23, 2014

khalid_sl said:
Oh, so now I'm a sexist asshole? Here is my homework assignment for you. Stop assuming that everyone that disagrees with you is a sexist asshole. Believe it or not, there are plenty of reasons to disagree with the mighty Tanoomba other than being a sexist asshole.

Never called you a sexist asshole. I said the only side of the story you've heard was the side championed by sexist assholes. Stop putting words in my mouth.

khalid_sl said:
It is at least nice that at the very end you say "her Hitman example was a terrible one". However, that is a misrepresentation. It wasn't a terrible example, it was a deliberate smear.

It might be, but we don't know that for sure. Surely someone who followed the Zimmerman case can understand why? I've already provided multiple feasible alternatives as to why she used this example besides "she's a liar". All we do knowfor sureis that it's a terrible example. The best way for us to criticise her is by showing how it's a terrible example, not by trying to tear her down as a-

Fuck. I forgot your opinion is worthless here. Let me know when you've watched one of her videos.

Ridas · Sep 23, 2014

Maybe she is stupid?

fanaskin · Sep 23, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
Did I stutter?

with as much verification of story as was afforded zoe and anita over their claims yes there is evidence that people got doxxed and fired over GG censorship that anita advised

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