Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...

khalid · Sep 23, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
Let me know when you've watched one of her videos.

I have watched her videos (well, the kickstarter and one other). The problem is, I KNOW parts of it are bullshit. For some of the games that I have played, like GTA, I agree with some of her points and disagree with others. However, then I see people breaking down her attacks on some games and see how flawed they are and suddenly I'm not even trusting what I remember from GTA.

My issue is, for the parts where I haven't played the games, I CAN'T TRUST IT. How can I base a conversation on something that I simply don't trust unless I have verified it myself? The video isn't doing anything for me. If we wanted to talk about sexism in GTA, fine, lets do it. However, if we want to talk about sexism in something I haven't played, like Watch Dogs, I certainly am not about to use her depiction of it in the videos. I have no idea if its bullshit or not. If you say "yeah, well, what about Red Dead Redemption", again something I haven't played, if you are sourcing from her video, I can't trust it either.

That is my problem. It doesn't make sense to me to start a discussion on sexism in games based on flawed source documents. Just like I don't think you can start a rational conversation on gun violence based on something like Bowling for Columbine. Pieces filled with truth and misrepresentation blurred all together are to me the absolute worst way to start.

Tanoomba · Sep 23, 2014

fanaskin_sl said:
with as much verification of story as was afforded zoe and anita over their claims yes there is evidence that people got doxxed and fired over GG censorship that anita advised

We were talking about real-world harm caused by Sarkeesians "Women vs Tropes"videos. Try to keep up.

For the record, so far the answer is still "none whatsoever".

fanaskin · Sep 23, 2014

Fuck you I don't give a fuck if you want to keep it so narrow, I said originally that anita herself has influence in the industry not just her videos, try and keep up tanoomtard.

there's as much verfication that these are real as is zoe's or anita's story that was taken and signal boosted at face value

Mr. Cappadocia

4chan mods Skype group - Pastebin.com

[9/18/14 12:43 AM] moot: Cracked sent me an email a few days ago
[9/18/14 12:43 AM] moot: The same day Zoe issued her article, to be exact
[9/18/14 12:43 AM] moot: They told me they are strong supporters of the Social Justice Movement, and are through sitting behind while the harassment goes on
[9/18/14 12:44 AM] moot: They said if I didn't stop Gamergate on 4chan, they would write an article that "exposes" 4chan for the "true cesspit" it is. They're also going to basically get feminists to hack in and take down my site.
[9/18/14 12:44 AM] moot: And coincidentally, I got a letter that threatened to lynch me in the streets, from a group of hackers who strongly support feminism.
[9/18/14 12:44 AM] moot: A day before this, I went to see Anita speak at XOXO, and she was absolutely lovely. Behind the scenes, I got to have a word with her. We hit it off perfect, and we're now friends through online communication.
[9/18/14 12:44 AM] moot: I told her my situation, and her advice was to get my mods to delete everything Gamergate on site.
[9/18/14 12:44 AM] moot: I was reluctant, but after that day, I did what she said. You all remember the day I told you to delete Gamergate shit, we were convinced it would work.
[9/18/14 12:44 AM] moot: But it didn't fucking work.
[9/18/14 12:45 AM] moot: That hacker group is real btw.
[9/18/14 12:45 AM] moot: They've been sending more letters to my house, and emails to my personal address.
[9/18/14 12:45 AM] moot: Funny thing is, I still support them more than I do Gamergate.
[9/18/14 12:45 AM] moot: So, that's why I'm so worried. I got Cracked making threats and a group threatening to take down my site.
[9/18/14 12:45 AM] moot: The two are very powerful, and can get done what they say they want to get done.

...mostly just reiterating and people reacting for the next few minutes, nothing noteworthy.
here's where the real dirt begins:

[9/18/14 12:59 AM] [REDACTED 2]: The Internet Aristocrat's real name is ------ - ------- and it turns out he has a real job at ------------. Maybe, we could call him at work and get him fired because of his shameless support of harassment?
[9/18/14 12:59 AM] [REDACTED 3]: Holy hell, how did you find that?
[9/18/14 1:00 AM] [REDACTED 2]: A friend who used to know him. The Aristocrat's a disgusting human being, he deserves it.
[9/18/14 1:00 AM] [REDACTED 10]: We have dox on a lot of Gamergate supporters.
[9/18/14 1:00 AM] [REDACTED 10]: Nero and MundaneMatt among others.
[9/18/14 1:00 AM] moot: While I don't advocate doxing, maybe this could play into our advantage.
[9/18/14 1:00 AM] [REDACTED 5]: Couldn't we just scare the supporters off?
[9/18/14 1:00 AM] moot: Scaring them off could take work.
[9/18/14 1:00 AM] [REDACTED 6]: Tell them we got dox because they posted in /v/
[9/18/14 1:00 AM] [REDACTED 8]: What the hell, you're not legitimately considering this are you?
[9/18/14 1:00 AM] [REDACTED 8]: They could find out it was us.
[9/18/14 1:00 AM] [REDACTED 1]: we can use firewalls, lol
[9/18/14 1:00 AM] moot: I'm reluctant, but not unwilling to try that.
[9/18/14 1:01 AM] [REDACTED 8]: Fine, but what about the people using proxies?
[9/18/14 1:01 AM] [REDACTED 5]: There are more people without proxies than people with proxies.
[9/18/14 1:01 AM] moot: ^ We can get rid of most of them.
[9/18/14 1:01 AM] [REDACTED 5]: I'll work on the idea. Maybe, get in one normie supporter so it looks legit.
[9/18/14 1:01 AM] moot: Nice. Sometimes hostility is the answer. Not all the time, but sometimes.

Tanoomba · Sep 23, 2014

fanaskin_sl said:
Fuck you I don't give a fuck if you want to keep it so narrow, I said originally that anita herself has influence in the industry not just her videos, try and keep up tanoomtard.

Well at least you're finally indirectly admitting her videos are harmless. We're making progress here, step by step.

Here's the next step: How did she become so influential? (Hint: It wasn't by being "praised" by the media)

fanaskin · Sep 23, 2014

I never said that dumbass indirectly or otherwise.

mkopec · Sep 23, 2014

fanaskin · Sep 23, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
Well at least you're finally indirectly admitting her videos are harmless.

her video's she's selling as curriculum to teach kids, yeah that's totally "harmless" to peddle some pseudo scientific shit you made, in the authority of a classroom. You know how I know that cause I watched almost all her shitty video's back when I saw you promoting her in a "woman I admire thread" months ago.

Mario Speedwagon · Sep 23, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
The threats are not a result of Sarkeesian's work. The threats are the result of the actions of sexist assholes, something Sarkeesian had zero control over.

The threats are not a result of GamerGate's work. The threats are the result of the actions of sexist assholes, something GamerGate had zero control over.

You're such a bullshit artist. The sad thing is you're not even good at it.

Arbitrary · Sep 23, 2014

fanaskin_sl said:
4chan mods Skype group - Pastebin.com

May you live in interesting times.

Tanoomba · Sep 23, 2014

Dr. Mario Speedwagon_sl said:
The threats are not a result of GamerGate's work. The threats are the result of the actions of sexist assholes, something GamerGate had zero control over.

You're such a bullshit artist. The sad thing is you're not even good at it.

So we're in agreement: The real problem is the sexist assholes.

Lithose · Sep 23, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
Dude, really? I checked all those links, and the greatest praise she received in any of those was "pretty good" from the article that also appeared in my Google search. The second-greatest praise she received was "There's some interesting stuff in there", from one of her video announcements.Everything else was a clinical description of the content of her videos.That's all most of these are, by the way: "Anita Sakreesian released a new video talking about the portrayal of women in video games." If you think they are obligated to criticise her just because they mentioned her (which is arguable), go ahead and say so. But don't go misrepresenting the issue by saying she's being showered with praise while not being criticised, because that's not what's happening.

Number of times "amazing" was used to describe her work inyoursearch results: 0
Apparently, it's not as easy as you thought to find 2-3 dozen examples of articles talking about how amazing her work is. You have yet to show me one.

Tan, in my original statement, I said I could look back at ten pages. These are the links from the FIRST page of those searches. Also...The FULL quote was.

Lithose_sl said:
This is also a series that absolutely DESTROYS Anita's work in viewership/popularity; and in general just has a much larger impact on the gaming "scene" because even his lowest rated/viewed videos are still viewed 2-3 times more than Anita's highest (On average). And guess what, Tan? He's never in any publications or releases..but I've never seen an article even commenting on his work. Now, maybe there is a few. However, if there is, it's not coming in the first 10 pages of a Google search, meanwhile, you can find 2-3 dozen articles on Anita's work,andhow amazing it is; fairly easy. (Not to mention, again, I'm a pretty voracious reader--I usually don't go more than 2 months without seeing an Article in the gaming media about Anita's work; meanwhile, I've never seen one on Sequillitis.)

So yes. In both these cases, you have two different critical interpretations of the same work--and that's fine. The problem is ONE interpretation isbeing signal boosted like fucking crazybecause of an extreme bias in the gaming media (And actual collusion causing pressure)...Yet when this ridiculous stance is pointed out;when it's illustrated that Anita has beenbenefitingfrom said collusion, those accusations are "sexist" and the Gaming community is told, just like you're doing now, that "be an adult and just ignore her."

What I wrote was that it was FAIRLY easy to find, I did TWO whole searches and limited by scope to thefirstpage. Also, the second part of my post was clearly talking aboutSIGNAL boostingand how Anita is BENEFITING from them. The fact that Anitaliterally gets press coverage for EVERY release, (As you call them, clinical descriptions) despite some of her videos having20%the viewership of Sequelitis, who receives almost NO publications, is CLEAR evidence of signal boosting AND the fact that she benefits from broader coverage/publicity due to the media. But you ignore that because you literally didn't find the word "amazing" in the articles? LOL (Again, I hate having to teach you English, but it's obvious "amazing" there was being used as an ambiguous adjective; and not a specific example of actual word used--stop being disingenuous, Tan. And yes, some of the articles were clinical, again, you reviewed a ONE entry google search, with results from ONE page, easy=/=idiot proof )

But lets break it down.

Fact:You linked Sequielitis as an example of another form of critique that somehow "didn't get hate" (intimating that people should treat Anita like that). People told you it wasn't her views, it was that her views are signal boosted and remain unchallenged even though it's very easy to critique them.

Fact:You believe there is NOT a blatant bias in media; and therefor said bias is not the reason why Anita is treated differently from Sequelitis. (IE it can't be because the media is shoving this down everyone's throats, despite clear problems/mistakes in her criticism; it HAS to the fact that she is a Feminist.)

Fact:I've illustrated that despite Sequelitis being as large of a series; the amount of times it's plugged, discussed and commented on by the mainstream media issignificantlysmaller. (Proving that Tropes IS signal boosted, and that, indeed, there is a CLEAR bias for gamers to be mad about. And thus, it's possible that the BIAS+having plenty of mistakes in the content that's the problem and not the fact that she's a feminist. )

Fact:I did all this without digging around beyond the first page of ANY site; even though Iclearlyindicated that the results would come in the first 10 pages of any search.

This is a case of shifting goal posts, Tan; my original assertion was easily provable so now you need the actual word amazing AND it needs to be on page one, not ten AND signal boosting is no longer a marker of bias. It does really make you look like a disingenuous jerk of the highest order to do stuff like that. I can't believe your defense is that you literally didn't find the word "amazing"---LOL. Once more, Tan. Address the fact that comparing her signal boosted, acclaimed, reviews is completely a false equivalence to other Youtube critics who don't' receive a damn press publication for EVERY video they release. It's such an absurd comparison on it's face it'salmostincredible.

Lendarios · Sep 23, 2014

Tan has been moving the goal post since he first started the conversation. He argues just for the sake of arguing, aka a troll. At this point arbitrary's images add more to the discussion and argument than the two of you.
Seeing your jimmies been rustled only feeds him.

Arbitrary · Sep 23, 2014

I already said I regretted responding to him with anything other than an image macro. Basically every post he makes includes massive distortions in reality that you would have to first address before ever moving forward. It's not worth the time. I only got into this particular leg of the argument because of how ridiculous I thought it was that he was phrasing this as "she has opinions and you have opinions so take the opportunity to have a debate" like there everything was really reasonable and there wasn't rampant intellectual dishonesty that you would have to spend time on before ever getting to the heart of anything. The well is poison, the ground around the well is poison, and the people observing the well from a distance are being shot with poisoned blow darts.

Dismiss the nonsense as nonsense and move on.

Cad · Sep 23, 2014

Lithose bro, sometimes he is just trolling you. This is one of those times.

The problem (if you could call it a problem) is that you post crafted, lengthy, thought out replies that actually take a middle, reasonable tone and viewpoint and concede uncertainties and ambiguities. Tanoombatard takes that concession (which you and I view as a necessity to accurately state an argument unless you want to state absolutes, which we know nearly everything is a shade of gray) and twists it into "SO YOU AGREE THAT..." type of asshattery in order to strawman you and move the goalposts such that you're just talking past each other.

Not that there's anything wrong with your posting style, the issue is just that you're actually intellectually honest and try to have a reasoned debate, and Tanoombatard isn't. He is flat out trolling for replies, probably doesn't have enough going on in his life to entertain himself, I don't know.

Anyways.

Lithose · Sep 23, 2014

Yeah, you guys are right. Kind of walked into that one =-/.

Phazael · Sep 23, 2014

Tanoomba is no Hodj. Your efforts are better spent elsewhere.

Tanoomba · Sep 23, 2014

Lithose_sl said:
Tan, in my original statement, I said I could look back at ten pages. This are links from the FIRST page. I also highlighted something important. These are MAJOR media centers advertising for a youtube critic, even far larger youtubers do NOT get that kind of publicity. Also; as you said, "praise" takes many forms, arguing IN DEFENSE of her is praise. You discounted the articles literally because they didn't say "amazing" in there. You're being disingenuous again; and really obnoxious with it this time.

(spoilered for length)

Lith, I'm genuinely surprised at you. You said, and I quote:

you can find 2-3 dozen articles onAnita's work, and how amazing it is; fairly easy

Those are your words. You chose them. Between the both of us we haven't found one mainstream article that talks about how amazing her work is. Never mind whether or not the word "amazing" was used, the highest praise either of us found was "pretty good", from an article thatincluded plenty of criticism against her. If this doesn't directly contradict your narrative that the media is heaping praise on her, I don't know what does.

But then, in order to shield yourself from accusations of disingenuity and shifting goalposts, you decided to make a pre-emptive attack against me for actually responding to your words as you wrote them. Your claim wasn't that the media was taking her side in the "feminist critic vs sexist asshole" debate, your claim was thather workwas being heavily praised with no counter-criticism. Those are not the same thing and I'm a bit offended that you are now trying to say it is.

Here's some other quotes from you:

In other words--the media praise Anita's work; call it ground breaking and eye opening (I'm serious).

So why would her assessment be called "brilliant", while mine would probably be attacked as sexist.

You're clearly stating that the media is showering Sarkeesian's work with praise. And yet, when it came time to prove how easy it was to find 2-3dozenexamples of it, you didn't show me a single article that called her work "ground-breaking", "eye-opening", "brilliant" or "amazing". Or, if you think it's unfair of me to focus on those specific words, how about "fantastic", "great", "fascinating", "engaging", "awesome", "stellar", "mind-blowing"... how long until I'm not a "disenegenous jerk off of the highest order", Lith? You made a statement you couldn't back up and in the very next breath accusedmeof being disingenuous (and obnoxious, thanks for that valuable insight). I expect that from a lot of other posters here, but not from you.
If you had simply said the media promoted her work, you'd have been right. If you had said they supported her decision to draw attention to sexist assholes, you would have been right. But you said they praised her, and you used several adjectives that have real-world meanings. Maybe you wish you would have chosen your words better earlier, but don't take it out on me for responding to what you were actually saying.

Now, if you're done attacking me personally, can we continue with the discussion?

Lithose_sl said:
Fact: You linked Sequielitis as an example of another form of critique.

No, I linked Sequelitis asthe same formof critique, from a gamer's point of view. I'm saying Sarkeesian and Egoraptor are doing fundamentally the same thing.
"But Tan! Then why did she get promoted by the mainstream media while he barely got a peep?"
My best guess is novelty factor. People talking about games we all know and love (even people who are funny and clever about it) are a dime a dozen. A feminist looking at how females are represented in video games was something unique and fresh. It was a perspective we weren't used to seeing, and it got a lot of attention for it. Is that not at least feasible? Is that an unreasonable thing to say? Why does that sound so far-fetched?

Lithose_sl said:
Fact: You believe there is NOT a blatant bias in media.

Well, I believe there'snot necessarilya blatant bias in media. I certainly believe that people that believe thereisbias will be able to find what they believe to be evidence of it. This is the nature of conspiracy theories. What I've been patiently trying to do is show how for every "proof" that has been presented for a certain theory ("Mainstream media is protecting Sarkeesian because she's a woman", "Sarkeesian is a lying con-artist who wanted to make herself a target to get rich", etc), there are usually other perfectly reasonable and feasible explanations. Generally, the only thing that makes one theory more convincing than another is personal bias. Sexist assholes do not need much convincing that Sarkeesian is a lying cheat, which is why they were at the forefront of the personal attacks against her.

Lithose_sl said:
Fact: I've illustrated that despite Sequelitis being as large of a series; the amount of times it's plugged, discussed and commented on by the mainstream media issignificantlysmaller.

No argument there. Feasible explanation already offered.

Lithose_sl said:
Fact: I did all this without digging around beyond the first page of ANY site; even though I clearly indicated that the results would come in the first 10 pages of any search.

OK.

I guess you thought your list of "facts" would paint a damning picture, but I'm responding to them with pretty much the same points I've been making the whole time and which have yet to be refuted. If I had a weak case here, I imagine there's no way you would have taken the time and effort to keep this back and forth going. I've been on the losing end of arguments before (and admitted it!), but I honestly feel as comfortable about my position now as I did when we started. I've attracted much animosity (what else is new?), but found very little that actually contradicts anything I've said. I love your posts because they give me insight into the frustration that a lot of people must be facing, and I have zero problem with you demanding more from mainstream media, but I just think a lot of the things you take for granted come from a flawed foundation. I don't think you're sexist, but I do think you have a certain sensitivity about gender issues that leads you to require less convincing in order to see something as "protecting women". I hope you don't take that as a personal attack (it isn't meant as one), but it's the impression I get and which I've mentioned in past discussions. Don't get me wrong, I'm not for a second going to pretend I don't have any bias, or even that I'm not naive about many things, but when I see two separate spite-filled hateful witch hunts spiral out of control and take over gaming media, I feel compelled to participate in the discussion. I just hope you can see that I'm not trying to "trick" you here or present you with anything but reasonable, sincere arguments.

Edit: *Sigh...* You changed your whole fucking post. Now I have to respond to your changes... How about proof-readingbeforeyou hit "submit reply"?

Lejina · Sep 23, 2014

Lithose posting in this thread is a terrible waste. Other threads could benefit from his inputs. Replying to Tan is nothing but a colossal waste of time.

Arbitrary · Sep 23, 2014

Tanoomba_sl said:
(spoilered for length)

Search

Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...

mkopec

khalid

Unelected Mod

Tanoomba

ジョーディーすれいやー

fanaskin

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fanaskin

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Mario Speedwagon

Gold Recognition

Arbitrary

Tranny Chaser

Tanoomba

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Lithose

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Lendarios

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Cad

scientia potentia est

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Phazael

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Tanoomba

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