Camelot Unchained MMO

The server was very solid the first few days of open alpha, no crashes with over 1,100 players and bots (according to CSE). MJ acknowledges this is a true tech alpha, it's exactly what he has been saying it was going to be. They aren't using final models or abilities, they are more concerned with getting getting physics working right, etc. Hell, they even released their building system early than planned. I am not concerned at this stage and won't be for another 3-4 months.

Look, if dudes like flobee come in here and say everything is on skates and melee is just a short range caster this game isn't worth looking at yet plain and simple.

Combat fluidity and Character responsiveness are core to a game like this. And they don't have it. No thanks.

While I agree with vit overall, I don't think the critism is warranted. They are basically at the stage where you haven't heard of the game yet.

ZyyzYzzy_sl said:

They aren't at that portion of developmemt. I'd rather have them get their engine and servers solid the move.onto that instead of show a bunch of polished graphics/animations that end up running like shit (Which has been a problem with some recent big name launches).

I feel like in a PvP game, they are doing thigs in the.correct order to ensure the game is playable.

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What makes you think they're going to magic patch combat to be more responsive when they're designing their engine and server structure around the current combat set? Do you have a link to the devs talking about reworking combat?

What's the point of doing this separate instead of in tandem. They have no way of knowing how their netcode or engine they're designing will function in a fluid combat system if they don't actually have a fluid combat system...

There's hardly any credible info on this subject to even take that stance.

I don't think they have a very large team to be doing things like that.

Draegan_sl said:

While I agree with vit overall, I don't think the critism is warranted. They are basically at the stage where you haven't heard of the game yet.

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Draegan_sl said:

I don't think they have a very large team to be doing things like that.

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Eh you're probably right, I'll butt out of this conversation, not worth my time.

ZyyzYzzy_sl said:

Exactly, consideting their scope, resources and team they are being realistic and focusing on essentials first. Being pragmatic is a good thing.

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Agree with Vit, actually. Combat fluidity and character responsiveness and how combat "feels" overallshould be essential. Mmogs that don't get that part right from the ground up tend to never get it right.

Frankly, this is an area that is often neglected in mmogs and those mmogs pay for it. If you have a small team and you are resource poor, start out with two characters in an empty room fighting each other. Get that part right first, then build around it.

Start with the "game", get it right, then move on to the "massively" the "multiplayer" and then "online."

ZyyzYzzy_sl said:

Responsiveness and fluidity are dependent on the engine and server code though

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Very true, I don't think anyone would argue with that. But I think it's fair to say there is more to getting combat right than engine optimization and network code. I think the concern here is that simply optimizing those two things won't be enough to fix combat in CU. I.e. there are flaws that run deeper than those two things.

Arden_sl said:

Agree with Vit, actually. Combat fluidity and character responsiveness and how combat "feels" overallshould be essential. Mmogs that don't get that part right from the ground up tend to never get it right.

Frankly, this is an area that is often neglected in mmogs and those mmogs pay for it. If you have a small team and you are resource poor, start out with two characters in an empty room fighting each other. Get that part right first, then build around it.

Start with the "game", get it right, then move on to the "massively" the "multiplayer" and then "online."

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I totally understand and agree with this viewpoint on combat for 99.9% of games. However Daoc had dogshit combat with a UI to match and the game was fun as hell. I'm not saying that CU will pull this same sort of feeling off (who fucking knows) but I will say that its way too early to tell. Vit's approach is prolly the best at this point, wait and see what things look like in 6-8 months because I don't think there will be much to see before then. Leastwise not for those outside Alpha/Beta. However making any final judgments at this point is silly.

Flobee_sl said:

I totally understand and agree with this viewpoint on combat for 99.9% of games. However Daoc had dogshit combat with a UI to match and the game was fun as hell. I'm not saying that CU will pull this same sort of feeling off (who fucking knows) but I will say that its way too early to tell. Vit's approach is prolly the best at this point, wait and see what things look like in 6-8 months because I don't think there will be much to see before then. Leastwise not for those outside Alpha/Beta. However making any final judgments at this point is silly.

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I only played DAOC for a little while. I was way too wrapped up in EQ at the time to give it a good go (and I kind of regret that now). And, frankly, I'm not in CU alpha or anything, so I can't claim that in its current state it's hopeless or anything.

It's just been my experience with this genre that optimizing engine/netcode stuff can only correct combat problems to a certain extent. To use some totally arbitrary numbers: By alpha, your combat fluidity and character responsiveness shouldn't feel more than 20% off. Optimizationsmaybe able to correct for 20%, but probably not much more than that. "Ice skating around with your sword in the air when casting your basic melee ability" (great descrip btw) sounds way more than 20% off...

But, like you said, some people may not mind that type of combat. I hate it. I need something way more tactile and crisp. Honestly, I think most people do, even if they don't realize it. Lack of fluidity and responsiveness creates a real disconnect with the game (and your character). I've found over time that I am the type of person that notices even a little disconnect and it ruins the game for me.

You can criticize plenty of things about WoW and EQ, but the character responsiveness was damn good for both games. I don't think it's coincidence they stand as two of the most successful titles in the genre. Hell, I worked at Sigil and I could barely stand to play Vanguard because of the noticeable disconnect caused by lack of character responsiveness to the environment.

Anyway, I hope the best for CU, but if I was an investor, your description would have me popping tums right now.

Mark Jacobs had a lot of money and ressources to make Warhammer a fabulous game, and it was a genuine turd. Will he learn from his mistakes and create a better game with way less money ? I wouldn't know, I didn't play DAoC therefore I don't have any nostalgia syndrome, but from someone who bought Warhammer and read a lot of his bullshit during the game's release while experiencing a quite bad gaming experience, I think he's a huge entitled asshole. I'd like to be proven wrong though.

You're leaving the 800 pound EA Gorilla out of the Warhammer equation. I don't blame that on Mark. I blame it on his bosses wanting a WOW killer. Just the same as SWTOR, except Warhammer didn't have the Bioware time and money.

DAOC had an amazing PVP design and was a very fun game for the limited funds Mythic had to create it. It had huge problems, but it was definitely a success story.

None of that changes the fact Mark Jacobs is a huge entitled asshole, and I wouldn't kickstart him anymore than Garriot or Brad. I don't doubt he'll release some sort of product, and it has a decent chance of being fun.

The engine and the net code was fucking ass in WAR from alpha.

"Game Feel" is by far the most esoteric and difficult part of... well making a game. This is because it is the end product in a chain of multi-disciplinary interdependent processes which all have to interact and any of which can not be good enough. Engine and net code are extremely important, but that alone doesn't mean the game will feel good; camera, animations, particle effects, and audio all play critical roles as well.

And it will always suck at first. You have to spend time and effort iterating on everything and most importantly you need smart, talented individuals all the way along the chain who can quickly identify where a problem is and what the optimal solution is. Resource limitations mean that the skill lies primarily in knowing which solutions will be the mostefficientrather than which will be thebestin any particular case, meaning that more of the game feels better for the same amount of spent resources.

Yea, I don't know how much clearer I can put this than that they haven't really worked on much besides the netcode and server structure from what I can tell. They are squeaking along the other parts of the game. And I 100% agree having a game that isn't responsive with fluid and consistent combat then all the netcode in the world won't matter, but when you have shit netcode and server structure from the start you can't make a massive scale game like they are shooting for.

But it's like someone already said, the game is basically at a point where (if it was not funded via kickstarter) about 1% of us would have heard of the game so far.

That said they can still screw up a lot, but I feel that getting that netcode and server structure tight is one of the most important things to do. If you think they should make sure combat flawless first than you know that's like your opinion dude, but I think making a fluid combat engine before building a solid server is silly for the large scale game they are shooting for, if this was a MOBA or fucking online arena or whatever then yea sure.

Looks pretty badass so far.