Captain America: Civil War (2016)

Rengak

Blackwing Lair Raider
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I think Caps motivations were understandable--I think the movie itself would have be helped though by a little more connective tissue to the source of his concerns. In the movie, you essentially had Cap starting to talk to Tony and possibly signing, then Wanda being held on base was what made him freak out...That scene felt very flat, Tony's reaction felt unreasonable--she worked with a known terrorist organization, the same one that brought down SHIELD, and she's not a U.S. citizen. People died in a foreign operation she was on, it's pretty reasonable she stays in the compound until things settle down.

In any case, I was watching Winter Soldier against last night..And the scene came up where Nick Fury talks about potentially salvaging some of the Carriers--and Steve says no way, the price for them risking everyone and Hydra growing under the organizations nose was it all goes, it all ends. This is the one problem I have with Caps logic--if ignorance towards an internal threat is justification enough to absolve an organization? Then why the hell is he pushing for the Avengers to remain after Ultron? Ultron grew right under his nose, after all. Yeah, Tony didn't tell him, but that's because the Avengers are compartmentalized; exactly the reason he said Shield had to go.

So his ideological reason for not agreeing to have the Avengers change? Felt a bit weak during the mid film crisis, understandable, but a little weak--I think some specific catalyzing event connecting to WS, like Tony's guilt trip scene, but for Cap? Would have been better. (By the end of the film I actually felt that Cap's motivations were fine, though--because the organization trying to control him had allowed Bucky to be tampered with, illustrating the same weakness shield fell too. But the mid movie choice felt pretty week, especially how he didn't trust Tony with his hunch.)

But overall, that's a small gripe, as said, anyone can easily fill in the blanks based on, as you said, Winter Soldier.
Cap wanted to end shield because there was no way to be sure how many Hydra agents were left. If shield continued, then the same thing could happen again. The ultron comparison only works if Stark was secretly a bad guy who wanted to create ultron for villainous reasons (omg stark was a skrull!) The avengers can stay because there aren't sleeper agents in their ranks.
 

Cantatus

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Yea it's not a 'bad' movie but there wasn't much exciting or new in it. Like Avengers 1 = alien invasion, Avengers 2 = unkillable AI robot mastermind, Cap 1 = red skull/hydra (ok not great but still), Cap 2 = winter soldier + shield conspiracy shit, Cap 3 = ... OK its some dude who threatens to use super soldiers... nope just a video tape and now they're fighting.

I dunno, one could skip this and not really lose much other than wondering why Ironman has to use an antique flip-phone to call Cap in Avengers 3.
That's one of the reasons I enjoyed Civil War so much. It seems like every movie the stakes have had to be raised, the enemies more powerful, the destruction more extreme. Civil War took a step back and took a much different approach by having the villain be more of a strategic threat and not just another villain controlling an endless army of flunkies and attacking with brute force. It showed the toll things have taken on the Avengers over the past few years and that, despite being a team of superheroes, they were brought together primarily due to their power and aren't some monolithic force.

The villain wasn't a demigod or a deranged AI. He wasn't someone bent on world destruction or domination. He's someone driven by the thought that the Avengers have become far too powerful and negligent as a result. He was able to recognize the strong egos within the Avengers and the tension that has formed as a result and knew which threads to pull to bring that to a head. He's just a regular guy and yet he almost single-handedly destroys the Avengers and does far more damage to them than any previous villain purely by playing a mental game.

I think it also does a good job bringing Marvel into a new phase where - like in Winter Soldier and Thor 2 - people aren't constantly asking why the Avengers aren't jumping into every global problem that arises. That seemed to become more and more of a problem with the plots of the Marvel movies and can now be avoided due to the Avengers being fractured.
 

Homsar

Silver Baronet of the Realm
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I thought vision could lift Mjolnir was because he wasnt organic or whatever, wasnt that one of the big complaints with AoU. Vision wielding thors hammer was terrible
 

Void

Experiencer
<Gold Donor>
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If Odin wasn't smart enough to include inorganic beings in the enchantment, after having employed The Destroyer himself for a long time no less, I'd be really surprised at his lack of foresight.
 

radditsu

Silver Knight of the Realm
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I thought vision could lift Mjolnir was because he wasnt organic or whatever, wasnt that one of the big complaints with AoU. Vision wielding thors hammer was terrible
The point of the scene, outside a joke, is to mean he is worthy. Plus Infinity gems be crazy yall.
 

Siddar

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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The alien invasion in avengers one had a huge impact on Tony's view of the world he met a force that was at a greater level of technology then he was capable of and is obsessed with being ready for the next threat. He see's governmental power being needed to counter that threat. Steve on the other hand had just watched hydra infiltrate shield and take control of three shield helicarriers with plans of selectively killing millions of people based upon a computer driven program about what those people may do in the future. For Steve the risk of corrupt government is as great if not greater then the non governmental threats.
 

Homsar

Silver Baronet of the Realm
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If Odin wasn't smart enough to include inorganic beings in the enchantment, after having employed The Destroyer himself for a long time no less, I'd be really surprised at his lack of foresight.
I guess sentient beings can lift Mjolnir but its worthless since they dont get the power of Thor
 

Lanx

<Prior Amod>
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Remember Cap v IM is always supposed to be contrasting. Cap thinks small "my friends have no freedoms" vs. IM "Hulk could literally wreck a city"

Cap is about ideals, Tony is a realist.

Cap would love to live in a world and do whatever he wants, according to his 1940's ways of life. Tony sees that registration(sokovia accords) are inevitable, might as well get ahead of it and have as much control as possible.

Cap is the struggling artist bumming off of friends and places a fork in the middle of a white room and calls it art. Tony works 9-5 at a shitty job and keeps his family fed, while mowing the lawn on sat.
 

Xevy

Log Wizard
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Remember Cap v IM is always supposed to be contrasting. Cap thinks small "my friends have no freedoms" vs. IM "Hulk could literally wreck a city"

Cap is about ideals, Tony is a realist.

Cap would love to live in a world and do whatever he wants, according to his 1940's ways of life. Tony sees that registration(sokovia accords) are inevitable, might as well get ahead of it and have as much control as possible.

Cap is the struggling artist bumming off of friends and places a fork in the middle of a white room and calls it art. Tony works 9-5 at a shitty job and keeps his family fed, while mowing the lawn on sat.
So it seems we found the Lyrical for Iron Man.
 

Devlin

Golden Squire
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9
I guess sentient beings can lift Mjolnir but its worthless since they dont get the power of Thor
Yeah, that's pretty much all there is to it, he isn't capable of being worthy because he's a machine, if you left it on a table the table wouldn't be worthy either.
 

chaos

Buzzfeed Editor
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I don't really get the pro registration argument at all. They kept bringing up New York. So the alternative being they NOT save the world from the invading alien race? Sokovia happened because Tony is fucking around with emergent AI in his garage aka weapons facility. And again the alternative was... they NOT defeat Ultron? They keep pointing out collateral damage as if oversight will somehow fix that problem, or as if oversight is even really possible in this context. And the concept of oversight is immediately abandoned by the two biggest proponents the moment shit started actually going down kind of highlighting how failed an idea it was.
 

Gamma Rays

Large sized member
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Yeah, it would have been better if the trigger for the fracturing of the group was caused by something more physical or personal.

I don't read the comics, was this divide over signing / not signing, was that a story arc from the comics? Or just something created for this film.
 

Royal

Connoisseur of Exotic Pictures
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I don't really get the pro registration argument at all. They kept bringing up New York. So the alternative being they NOT save the world from the invading alien race?
New York should have been all the argument that Tony needed that the Avengers remaining self-directed was for the best. Not because they saved the city from an alien invasion, but because they also saved it from being nuked into oblivion when the powers that be decided the threat was too great and sent in a warhead to finish the job. The same sort of people that would be holding the Avengers leash post Accords.