Yeah I know. But you called th e EK a testing or training ground. Don't know what you meant by that.
Crowfall
- Thread starter Kharza-kzad_sl
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
Srathor
Vyemm Raider
- 1,884
- 3,045
1. You appear in the world, nekkid and alone, ahh the life of the dregs!
2. You grab a tree branch, a Club! A grand start to the day. Some nekkid and alone guy appears near you, you can't let him get a club, so you beat him to death.
3. You find out on vent where some guildies are, it seems one of the officers just got clubbed to death. Ooops sorry.
4. You scout out the area, apologizing every now and then to Officer (Bitch tits) Bob. You meet up with some other guildies in a valley where a river is running off to the east, and a small collapsed keep is filled with undead. Several other guildies are on their way, gathering stuff they find to help equip everyone.
5. You get enough force to take the boss of the ruined keep, having had luck frogstomping the zombies. The boss dies, yay team! America Fuck Yeah! Your guild leader takes over the flag and you are now in control of your first parcel, sure it is a ruined husk of a keep, but with some spackle and 2x4's Castle Anthrax can be born once again.
6. Of course now on the map there is a nice shiny new marker showing all of the non guilded fuckwits the fact that Castle Anthrax has been born. They want your shit. Of course the walls are crap, there is no real protection here, the inn is a tent with a giant hole in the side, and the forge is still on fire. There is also no beer. Ahh the dregs, such a wonderful place, Bob is even starting to look cute with his shapely bitch tits.
7. People go out looking for stuff to kill, you have to get wood and stone and metal to get this place repaired. Some jackhole popped into vent and crowed how his (Enemy) guild already has a forge built and they are making swords and know where you live.
8. The arms race begins. 10 people with swords will kill 20 people with clubs and shitty walls. Of course 5 people with clubs kill 1 dude with a sword, and now we have a sword. Of course the guild leader gives it to Bob. Fuck Bob and his stupid tits.
9. The campaign is in full swing, people have flocked to Castle Anthrax, bringing with them materials (Bribes) so they can join the glorious guild. Bob got his crafter girlfriend to log in finally and make the inn, and forge with the mats we have been bribed with. Gotta love Bob, his girlfriend is quite useful to have around, good old Bob.
10. We found Jackholes Forge area, they should have built walls. Sure they are well geared, but they dodge for shit, and the only good pvp'er is their guild leader. Such a shame we killed them and took their shit. Now we are well geared and have 50+ people logging in. Muhahaha.
11. Oh shit. PRX tag just spotted, they have 100+ people with siege engines. Castle Anthrax is doomed. No more spankings, no more Zoot. (Bob's Girlfriend)
2. You grab a tree branch, a Club! A grand start to the day. Some nekkid and alone guy appears near you, you can't let him get a club, so you beat him to death.
3. You find out on vent where some guildies are, it seems one of the officers just got clubbed to death. Ooops sorry.
4. You scout out the area, apologizing every now and then to Officer (Bitch tits) Bob. You meet up with some other guildies in a valley where a river is running off to the east, and a small collapsed keep is filled with undead. Several other guildies are on their way, gathering stuff they find to help equip everyone.
5. You get enough force to take the boss of the ruined keep, having had luck frogstomping the zombies. The boss dies, yay team! America Fuck Yeah! Your guild leader takes over the flag and you are now in control of your first parcel, sure it is a ruined husk of a keep, but with some spackle and 2x4's Castle Anthrax can be born once again.
6. Of course now on the map there is a nice shiny new marker showing all of the non guilded fuckwits the fact that Castle Anthrax has been born. They want your shit. Of course the walls are crap, there is no real protection here, the inn is a tent with a giant hole in the side, and the forge is still on fire. There is also no beer. Ahh the dregs, such a wonderful place, Bob is even starting to look cute with his shapely bitch tits.
7. People go out looking for stuff to kill, you have to get wood and stone and metal to get this place repaired. Some jackhole popped into vent and crowed how his (Enemy) guild already has a forge built and they are making swords and know where you live.
8. The arms race begins. 10 people with swords will kill 20 people with clubs and shitty walls. Of course 5 people with clubs kill 1 dude with a sword, and now we have a sword. Of course the guild leader gives it to Bob. Fuck Bob and his stupid tits.
9. The campaign is in full swing, people have flocked to Castle Anthrax, bringing with them materials (Bribes) so they can join the glorious guild. Bob got his crafter girlfriend to log in finally and make the inn, and forge with the mats we have been bribed with. Gotta love Bob, his girlfriend is quite useful to have around, good old Bob.
10. We found Jackholes Forge area, they should have built walls. Sure they are well geared, but they dodge for shit, and the only good pvp'er is their guild leader. Such a shame we killed them and took their shit. Now we are well geared and have 50+ people logging in. Muhahaha.
11. Oh shit. PRX tag just spotted, they have 100+ people with siege engines. Castle Anthrax is doomed. No more spankings, no more Zoot. (Bob's Girlfriend)
Tuco
I got Tuco'd!
- 47,919
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It feels like every MMO hypes up its crafting and sells the idea that people will be dedicated crafters who don't participate in combat. And every game comes out and we find out that the people who signed up to be dedicated crafters realize logging in every night after work to 50 mails with mats to process and 1 hour of staring at progress bars and inventory/spreadsheet management before they can play a game is an awful gaming experience.
Srathor
Vyemm Raider
- 1,884
- 3,045
Just the fact that while in the Dregs you only import your character. But that character has skills. And You have knowledge about build orders, proper placement, and have skilled up to the point that you don't fail at making any of the first 5 tiers of gear. Some skills will come from just playing in the Dregs. But if you had time to grind up skills in the EK it would be a testing and training ground.
Srathor
Vyemm Raider
- 1,884
- 3,045
Problem with this is, this is the dream every game pre-launch has. Then they wake up and find out they are still married to a fat ass wife like Phil and Bob's next door.
Nice hype job though.
Srathor
Vyemm Raider
- 1,884
- 3,045
Vitality
ＨＵＳＴＬＥ
- 5,808
- 30
Yeah fuuuuuuuck that.
Im down with spreadsheet management (6 months of Jita IV flipping) but not progress bar watching. No thanks.
I see no reason for any player/fan to not have optimism, although realism is a far better fit.
There's a reason why they posted this though:
J. Todd ColemanCreative Director_sl said:
1) We have no clue what import exports rules are going to be.
2) Even if we had one example, the Dregs are not uniform in the rules they will have. They will vary from campaign to campaign.
3) You can not skill up skills manually except for the first early percentages. Outside initial gameplay points, everything else is done via real life time like EVE.
So your perceptions on the game are a little off. It's easy to not realize hows the game will work because up to at least the end of the kickstarter, neither did the devs.
Vitality
ＨＵＳＴＬＥ
- 5,808
- 30
They were talking about making crafting require manual skill ups to get to the top skill tiers (after real life time maxed out skill point gain) they had pitched it to be the opposite of combat skills.
Ukerric
Bearded Ape
- 8,384
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It's not an awful experience. It's a different experience, and most important, one that is NOT for everyone.
That's what games have failed to realize. They've tried to make crafting easy, even mandatory at times (WoW, I'm looking at your - defunct - craft boni). Look no further than EVE: industrialists there thrive. They're a tiny minority because, basically, a good game cannot support a high % of crafter to customers. Make your crafting game a combination of puzzle solving (How do I unlock this stat combo?), pattern creation (you want a what? Chest Plate with agi bend and two slots? Not sure if I can craft one) and stock management (got enough Ultimium Ore for TWO armors. Find me more), and you've got a good crafting system. Just stop trying to design your crafting to be "attractive to players". Make it attractive to crafters instead.
What happens after is that you need to balance that fact. If your guild doesn't have that personality in it, designating someone as the dedicated crafter is going to suck. Finding the crafter and recruiting him/her = good.
(the pendant to this is that you shouldn't have dozens of mutually exclusive crafting specializations. If you want a good crafting system embedded in your game, you're not going to have lots of expert crafters, and expecting a guild to have one for every spec is failure)
Ukerric
Bearded Ape
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Varied from campaign to campaign. We already know Terminator ruleset (no import of anything), there's probably Rusty Weapons ruleset (one weapon only, nothing else), Full Gear ruleset, Materials only, and All you can carry ruleset.
Tuco
I got Tuco'd!
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- 82,557
I agree that they need to make the crafting system attractive to crafters, however the WoW-based paradigm of basing everything on progress bars will never do that. Adding features, options and complexity to a UI and progress bar crafting system is just... noise...
The questions the developers need to have when designing a crafting system is, "What's the gameplay here?", "What decisions are the players making?", "Is there any real element to exploration here, or are the pioneers of the system just going to try every permutation, datamine all the permutations, and then everyone after that will share a spreadsheet?".
A tale in the desert already lit the way, it's disappointing that no other MMO has followed it.
No, Draegan is right. We don't know anything. It's likely they'll completely redo the import/export rules a few times before release. Nobody knows what form they'll take because nobody knows exactly how the community will react.
If crafting is all about click button watch bar go from 0 -> 100 as it builds things, it's going to be a failure. What makes EVE so much more entertaining is that you can put in the orders for building and then go do something else (trading, gathering, whatever). No one wants to sit around and stare at the screen.
Tuco's scenario spells this out.
Log in.
Click through 50 mails for orders.
Click through a menu and click build 50+ times while watching bars fills up.
Log out because that just took 2 hours and it's time to go to bed.
Crafting should be about organizations and logistics. It shouldn't be about menu hopping and progress bars.
Tuco's scenario spells this out.
Log in.
Click through 50 mails for orders.
Click through a menu and click build 50+ times while watching bars fills up.
Log out because that just took 2 hours and it's time to go to bed.
Crafting should be about organizations and logistics. It shouldn't be about menu hopping and progress bars.
Srathor
Vyemm Raider
- 1,884
- 3,045
I know a lot is in flux with the crafting, but one of the things they are doing is having generic items that are variable depending on the mats used. Like you have 1 pattern for Plate helm, but with the different metals and alloys it gets different stats.
The other thing mentioned is having thralls in the blacksmith building. Bound spirits that can craft up orders for you.
I did forget about the offline skillup system, that might blow my pie in the sky conjecture right out of the water. Ahh well we can wait and see, but half the fun is wondering and spitballing on what might get made.
The other thing mentioned is having thralls in the blacksmith building. Bound spirits that can craft up orders for you.
I did forget about the offline skillup system, that might blow my pie in the sky conjecture right out of the water. Ahh well we can wait and see, but half the fun is wondering and spitballing on what might get made.
Where do you get this from? FFXIV and SWTOR both are decent games, do very well financially and support a large number of high level crafters.
In fact with FFXIV, it's to the point where the high/top crafters in the game actually make tons of guides detailing everything they've done and how to gear up step by step, how to /macro, when not to /macro every single point of the crafting for anyone to follow.
Any game couldpotentiallysupport a high number of top level crafters. The problem isn't supply or demand of made items being oversaturated because they still will be sold (at a lower price), but a combination of how your crafting skills/jobs interact with one another, the rules/timers/windows of crafting items and high level materials are acquired and used.
The reason it seems more games don't support more is because the crafting to most players (imo) is boring as shit so they don't mess with it. As Tuco said, you can either craft for a couple hours a day or actually play the game for a couple of hours a day, but unless you've got loads of time you can't do both.
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I believe "crafters" will never leave EKs. that's people who like doing crafting/tradeskilling shit in these kinds of games. They will build things and sell things and have the whole economy thing going on in the EKs. Sure their market won't include people who exclusively do terminator rule sets but I don't believe that will be the dominant playstyle or campaign type.
I think there will be a combat oriented class, those gerbil looking fucks, the little engineer guys, who's role is to make/use siege equipment, break buildings and build them back up. They will handle the majority of the building that occurs during campaigns.
There will be "dabblers" who kinda sorta sometimes build things casually, who opt in a subclass that gives them a few recipes, but aren't hardcore "crafters", an they are who will end up producing most of the goods (ie armor/weapons) during the campaigns. There isn't going to be super magically dragonslayer sword + 9s. And if there are it'll be built in EKs, purchased by risk adverse types in EKs, and never taken into campaigns that allow mainhand weapon as a potential drop/loss. Of course the rare mats to make it will come from dregs or other high risk campaign worlds but you'll probably never have/use it if you play in dregs.
Import rules are going to vary of course, but the EK market and crafting in general is going to be more about "with this campaign's inventory import limit how many sets of Tier 2 armor/weapons can I bring in from EK, allowing me how many deaths, before I gotta scrounge and use the Tier 1 shit that will be built out of scraps in the campaign itself?" "If we win this campaign and get that super rare mats for those +9 dragonslayer swords I can afford 50 full kits, ok cool that's 2 campaigns worth of gear to hold me over in case we lose the next few campaigns."
of course that's probably just a pipe dream. I'm fairly certain you won't have any kind of secure storage in dregs. but in less risky campaigns (like RvR or godwar) which I think the majority of players will end up congregating in, it'll probably work out like that.
also that's not to say that organized guilds won't have people they force into crafter/logistics role and drag into the campaign worlds to be craft bitches full time. that'll also happen, i'm just saying that'll give them an advantage because most randoms/unorganized folks will rely on the EK market and what they bring with them at the start.
I think there will be a combat oriented class, those gerbil looking fucks, the little engineer guys, who's role is to make/use siege equipment, break buildings and build them back up. They will handle the majority of the building that occurs during campaigns.
There will be "dabblers" who kinda sorta sometimes build things casually, who opt in a subclass that gives them a few recipes, but aren't hardcore "crafters", an they are who will end up producing most of the goods (ie armor/weapons) during the campaigns. There isn't going to be super magically dragonslayer sword + 9s. And if there are it'll be built in EKs, purchased by risk adverse types in EKs, and never taken into campaigns that allow mainhand weapon as a potential drop/loss. Of course the rare mats to make it will come from dregs or other high risk campaign worlds but you'll probably never have/use it if you play in dregs.
Import rules are going to vary of course, but the EK market and crafting in general is going to be more about "with this campaign's inventory import limit how many sets of Tier 2 armor/weapons can I bring in from EK, allowing me how many deaths, before I gotta scrounge and use the Tier 1 shit that will be built out of scraps in the campaign itself?" "If we win this campaign and get that super rare mats for those +9 dragonslayer swords I can afford 50 full kits, ok cool that's 2 campaigns worth of gear to hold me over in case we lose the next few campaigns."
of course that's probably just a pipe dream. I'm fairly certain you won't have any kind of secure storage in dregs. but in less risky campaigns (like RvR or godwar) which I think the majority of players will end up congregating in, it'll probably work out like that.
also that's not to say that organized guilds won't have people they force into crafter/logistics role and drag into the campaign worlds to be craft bitches full time. that'll also happen, i'm just saying that'll give them an advantage because most randoms/unorganized folks will rely on the EK market and what they bring with them at the start.