Crowfall

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Sylas

<Gold Donor>
3,666
4,197
We still in full on speculation mode? ok It seems to me their world system is basically just like any other decent mmo ever released which had different rule set servers. They are just spreading their servers out over a spectrum of PVE - faction pvp - gvg pvp - ffa pvp and making server transfers a game mechanic and designing around that. It does open up some interesting game design ideas. Allows you to just procedurally generate the worlds since they are all gonna be different anyway, and allows you to use more permanent kinds of voxel world destruction shit. So instead of a ticket to customer service or a fee paid to the game company to transfer servers the game is designed with server transfers in mind. I don't really know what the win/lose/kneel condition means on asset transfers between worlds and I can see how you'd think that the worlds were just like bg maps or something but I don't know. maybe it's like a dark portal thing and idk it opens once a month and thats when you can xfer worlds and you contest for control of it or some shit.

Of greater concern is the item loot. In that it's not everything. and in more secure space (ok worlds) you lose less of it? Not losing everything means that those things you can lose have some amount of value and took x amount of time to acquire. It means to some degree gear matters. So if you spend more time in more secure worlds acquiring gear with less risk of losing it, and even if you do accidentally get in a fight you will lose less of it?
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,385
277
Of greater concern is the item loot. In that it's not everything. and in more secure space (ok worlds) you lose less of it? Not losing everything means that those things you can lose have some amount of value and took x amount of time to acquire. It means to some degree gear matters. So if you spend more time in more secure worlds acquiring gear with less risk of losing it, and even if you do accidentally get in a fight you will lose less of it?
They might be doing 100% crafted loot, with mobs just dropping the craft mats and items that are identical to crafting statwise but with a different name (if even that), 'crude orcish sword' instead of 'heavy broadsword'. That way, time invested doesnt become that extreme and doesnt feature potential bottlenecks like in the EQ examples a page back. Of course, not having interesting loot on mobs, that's going to put off a good portion of players. But this is a niche game so it might work out?
 

Palum

what Suineg set it to
26,510
41,249
They might be doing 100% crafted loot, with mobs just dropping the craft mats and items that are identical to crafting statwise but with a different name (if even that), 'crude orcish sword' instead of 'heavy broadsword'. That way, time invested doesnt become that extreme and doesnt feature potential bottlenecks like in the EQ examples a page back. Of course, not having interesting loot on mobs, that's going to put off a good portion of players. But this is a niche game so it might work out?
Easy, you just make crafting super important and turn rate loot into patterns vs item itself, like Eve. Definitely doesn't work if you have to farm random drops. AC Darktide good example, people used the safest items either by cost, no drop, quick replacement, but they were far far from the best. Made a lot of cool loot crappy for many years because you could risk it.
 

Tearofsoul

Ancient MMO noob
1,791
1,257
Hunger Week - It's About time

Welcome to Hunger Week!

Until now, we?ve been describing the game in general terms. The real differences between Crowfall and other MMORPGs have been ?creeping around the edges? of our weekly updates.

Today is the turning point ? where we start to separate away from the herd. Unfortunately (but inevitably) that means we?re going to turn some people off today. But hopefully those of you who stick around will be here for the long haul.

About a decade ago, I was the creative director on a game called ?Shadowbane.? Shadowbane had a lot of flaws, but the vision is still something that I am very proud of. The Wolfpack founders (of which I am one) came up with something innovative ? really innovative. It?s surprising how rare that is, even in the game space.

Unfortunately, the vision was also flawed. SB had tons of technical and operational issues, yes, but that?s not what I am talking about. I?m talking about the crack in the foundation of the design:

At its heart, SB was a strategy game. And strategy games can?t last forever.

To illustrate this point, let me use an analogy. Every Thanksgiving, my family gets together for a game of RISK. Only it?s not ?let?s play Risk every thanksgiving? ? it?s ?let?s pick up from where we left last year, in the SAME game of Risk.?


The same game. The same conflict. Year after year after year:
Imagine that, in year 2, Uncle Bob starts winning.
In year 3, Uncle Bob presses the advantage. By the end of this game session, Bob basically owns the board.
Fast forward 10 years. We?re still playing that same game. Uncle Bob is now an unassailable tyrant.
The other players (i.e. everyone other than Uncle Bob) all wander away from the board to watch football or something ? because they know they don?t stand a chance. If a new player joins the game, Bob snuffs them out in their infancy, and they quit immediately.


Everyone is bored. Even Uncle Bob is bored ? because he hasn?t faced a challenge in over a decade. But he won?t give up by choice. That isn?t human nature.

In Shadowbane, I called this phenomenon server stagnation. The game is incredibly fun ? right up until someone wins. Then, without a server reset, the game stagnates and everyone quits.

TL;DR version:

One of the key elements of strategy games is they have a win condition followed by a board reset. You start the game, you play the game, someone wins. You reset the board and start a new game.

One of the key elements of MMOs is that they are persistent. Actually, that?s not the right word, is it? They?re permanent. Players expect to play them over years, and the game world is (generally) static.

These two design goals seem diametrically opposed: the game must reset and the game must last forever.
Can they be married together? I think they can.

Eternal Heroes, Dying Worlds
What if characters are persistent/permanent ? but the Worlds are not?
What if your character exists outside of any given Campaign, and can join new matches once a match is over?
This opens up a whole new world of design possibilities.

Characters are permanent, and advance over the course of many Campaigns. This gives you the feeling of persistence that we?ve come to expect from MMOs.
Campaigns, though, aren?t permanent. They still be ?persistent? between game sessions ? but they don?t last forever.
How long should the last? As long as the game is still fun! And they don?t all have to be the same duration. Some Campaigns could last 1 week, or 1 month. or 6 months. or 1 year.
These Campaigns aren?t just ?instances?, though -- they are fully populated, continent-sized, seamless zone MMO servers. The only thing they have in common with an ?instance? is that they are time-limited.
Because each Campaign is marching towards an end condition, this means that the World doesn?t have to be static anymore. We can break the Campaign into different ?phases?, and adjust the rules of the game change during each phase. We can allow the players to fundamentally change the world, without fear of the long term problems this might create.
Why not make each Campaign unique? Why can?t each one have a completely unique world map (mountains, forests, lakes, castles, villages, quarries, mines, mills ? you name it)? The ?exploration? phase of the game can be different in each Campaign. The world will never be stale.
To that point: since each game is a stand-alone event, we can even change the rules (and win conditions) of each Campaign. We can experiment with different rules, to see which ones are more popular ? and keep the game continually fresh.

So, how do you explain this?

The Hunger. The Hunger is a mysterious, destructive force that spreads from one world to the next, like an infection ? twisting and corrupting everything it touches. Eventually, the Hunger consumes the World itself, and it is destroyed.

Players take the roles of Divine Champions, immortal participants in the War of the Gods. They join the Campaigns to scavenge the Dying Worlds for relics, resources and glory.

A Campaign might look like this:

Phase 1 is Spring. The Campaign map is hidden by fog of war. You are dropped (typically naked) into an unknown, deadly environment. This world is filled with the ruins of ancient castles, abandoned mines and haunted villages ? which you have to explore to scavenge for weapons, tools and the resources to start building fortifications.
Phase 2 is Summer. The Hunger starts to infect the creatures. Resources become scarce. Your team claims an abandoned quarry and must fight to keep it. You use the stone to build an ancient keep, to use it as staging areas to attack their neighbors.
Phase 3 is Fall. The creatures become more deadly as the Hunger takes hold. Resources are heavily contested and transporting them is fraught with peril. Your guild frantically builds a wall around your city, as the nature of conflict shifts from smaller skirmishes to siege warfare.
Phase 4 is Winter. The environment is brutal. Warmth is hard to come by. Your kingdoms grows in strength; your neighbors falter and you demand that they swear fealty or face complete loss of the Campaign. Instead, a handful of smaller kingdoms choose to band together against you.
Phase 5 is Victory and Defeat. The World is destroyed in a cataclysmic event as the Campaign comes to an end. Your Kingdom emerges victorious, and you return to the Eternal Kingdoms to enjoy the spoils of war. Your adversaries head home, too -- to lick their wounds.

Crowfall_HungerEffectConcept.jpg


No one quits. Instead, both groups strategize on how to dominate the next Campaign.

This is the experience we are trying to create. Even if I lose, it won?t feel hollow.

We saw a similar pattern emerge during the SB beta? by accident, not design. Occasionally, changes to the game design would require us to wipe the world. Every time it happened, I was worried that players would quit the game.

Instead, we saw incredibly high peak concurrency numbers after each wipe. Every time. The ?land rush? to grab the key positions in the new world was incredibly alluring. If the world map was unique, I expect it would have been even more popular.

The downside of this approach is that we don?t want the universe to feel too transitory. That?s why we added the Eternal Kingdoms: super-sized player and guild housing Worlds. Trophy rooms that you can use as a ?lobby? between matches/campaigns.

(To make sure these Worlds don?t compete with the ?main? game, i.e. the Campaign Worlds, we?ve completely stripped them of resource factories and anything but common reagents. If you want to fill your trophy room, you have to go out and earn it.)

This is the foundational change that we?ve made. Crowfall isn?t an MMO with a ?battle ground? strapped to the end of the level treadmill. Crowfall isn?t a three-way tug of war that never resets. It?s a real blend of a strategy game and an MMO.

There?s more (a LOT more) to come, but it all starts with this basic idea:

Eternal Heroes, Dying Worlds.
 

Bruman

Golden Squire
1,154
0
"Crowfall isn't an MMO with a "battle ground" strapped to the end of the level treadmill. Crowfall isn't a three-way tug of war that never resets."

Lawl, why don't they just say "Fuck you WoW, Fuck you GW2", haha.

Still though, interesting idea.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Lithose, you should publish our design doc from last year here. They totally stole it from us. We came up with nearly the same exact design element.
 

Big Flex

Fitness Fascist
4,314
3,166
"Players take the roles of Divine Champions, immortal participants in the War of the Gods."

rrr_img_89439.jpg


jk the devs actually said at one point "We know people don't care about lore, we wrote all of this shit for Shadowbane as to why heaven was closed and therefore people respawned but 99.9% of people were like tl;dr so we'll just throw some George R. R. Martain shit over our dank designs. and trust me, dem designs 2 dank 4 u"

I love this idea, I always loved that initial 3rd world hell hole struggle for survival at the launch of a new PvP server waaay more than the propped up endgame. See my post on why EQ PvP sucked, this addresses almost all of the issues presented.
 

Byr

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
3,801
5,418
Hes very right about some things. The most fun times in shadowbane were the first few months of new servers. Nothing could ever match that. When you got bored of that, you just started jumping servers and rerolling to try and find something fun to do.

I dont like that characters persist, they should wipe with the worlds.
 

kaid

Blackwing Lair Raider
4,647
1,187
Honestly that hunger system if implemented correctly could really help a lot of the issues I saw with with shadowbane and other PVP oriented games. Its a pretty sensible way to handle the whole play to krush uber guild owns the entire server and everybody quits type issue we saw in shadowbane.

I will keep an eye out for this game seems like they at least took away some good lessons from their experiences now to see if they can implement them without all the technical fail that was in shadowbane.
 

Lasch

Trakanon Raider
1,525
736
Random train of thought that has me excited:
Casters will be so OP on the campaigns if people are going to spawn without gear.
Well, unless they add reagents as a requirement for higher level spells.
Have they even said there will be magic?
Hmm...
Kiting classes will be the way to go either way. Or pet classes.
Wait, would be the best way to gear up your melee classes for your guild? That portion of "rerolling" cant be forgotten.
Group compositions for gearing up and just as important groups for killing opposing faction/guild gearing groups...
 

Big Flex

Fitness Fascist
4,314
3,166
I dont like that characters persist, they should wipe with the worlds.
Well seeing as characters have no levels and most of your progression is done passively, I don't see this as a big deal. If I had to guess I'd say you don't bring any gear with you, either.

Random train of thought that has me excited:
Casters will be so OP on the campaigns if people are going to spawn without gear.
Well, unless they add reagents as a requirement for higher level spells.
Have they even said there will be magic?
Hmm...
Kiting classes will be the way to go either way. Or pet classes.
Wait, would be the best way to gear up your melee classes for your guild? That portion of "rerolling" cant be forgotten.
Group compositions for gearing up and just as important groups for killing opposing faction/guild gearing groups...
regs.
 

Byr

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
3,801
5,418
Group compositions for gearing up and just as important groups for killing opposing faction/guild gearing groups...
id disagree because even if you gear up faster youll still lose when the other group, made for PvP, get geared and sieges your city.

im also interested to see how this goes with players because a lot of players will instantly support it but when shadowbane put up a server like this, cataclysm if i remember right, a large percentage of the population hated it. Thats why the idea of renewing servers in shadowbane was scrapped.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
My basic idea for a new MMO would be a game based around wipes and starts. Essentially, the best time of any MMO is The Rush. New expansion, new game, whatever. People LOVE the race. Once it dies down, people don't give a shit about the grind for the most part. Lithose came up with the idea (PVE based) of a game that does the same thing. We likened it to a Diablo ladder reset but with more character persistence.

It's an awesome idea. I'm glad someone else thought of it that actually has funding and experience to make a game. I'm really excited to see if they can pull this off.