Depression

Moonarchia_sl said:

Izo, what I said before wasn't a random platitude. It's the fundamental truth of human existence. We live, we want things, and because we want things we suffer. Understanding that is where you can start to change it. To tie it back to meditation, when you meditate properly you start to understand what drives you, why you want X Y or Z, etc. Once you have that you can choose to keep wanting them and find better paths to get there or you can choose to stop wanting them. How much and what kind of suffering can you endure? It's just basic math beyond that.

Click to expand...

I disagree. It is platitudes. Religious platitudes. Masked as eastern philosophy. You're not exactly the first Buddhist to claim meditation can cure depression. You're fractally wrong in assuming Dharma, the teachings of Buddha, when it concerns the aethiology of depression is anything but religious nonsense. Throwing around words like 'fundamental truth' and 'properly understand', as well as the non-sequitur nature of this reasoning are a tell tale signs. Tell you what: understanding of the human brain, anatomy, physiology, biochemistry does not come from meditation. Nor does imaging techniques, CT, MRI. Your, Buddha's, explanation model for depression which demonstrably has a mutifactorial aethiology, is hogwash, a meaningless simplification. Meditation can be a fine symptomatic treatment, a coping strategy, en pas with cognitive therapy and, imho, best left to secular psychologists. Meditaion it's by no means the universal cure you religious nuts would attribute it. Now that would be simple math to someone with medical knowledge.

Care to spin the Chopra wheel of platitudes again?

Gavinmad_sl said:

Yes I got a lawyer. The judge is the one who basically said I wasn't disabled enough in the denial I was mailed. After months and months of waiting to hear about the appeal I finally started calling and harassing the lawyer. Shortly after that I get informed that my appeal was denied without a hearing, and then the law office dumped me.

Click to expand...

WTF - never heard of anything like that even being a possibility.

I'd try another lawyer still before completely giving up. Honestly it's something thats truly only a few hours in the longrun for you with potentially life changing payout. If you get the same thing with lawyer 2 and 3 I'd probably give up at that point, but I'm boggled by the results of your first.

Gavinmad_sl said:

There is no rebuilding. I'm a non-functional bi-polar with autism, adhd, and generalized anxiety disorder who was denied disability because I'm 'not disabled enough'. I'll be here until I die, unless my parents die first in which case I can finally kill myself.

Click to expand...

Did you ever consider that these labels are not clearly defined physical illnesses which you definitely have but are just vague models of what can and has happened after a lifetime of learning wrong?

You can settle into the definition you have of yourself and live off your parents/disability or try to fight your way out of it. I was in a similar sort of situation and it literally took about 5 years to get every area of my life up to an acceptable standard and I still have struggles, but my quality of life is a hell of a lot better now.

First step is getting ANY kind of job/education/training.

Did you ever consider fucking right off? I don't need empty platitudes and half assed 'i know what youre going through'.

Go pound sand you worthless twat.

Chris_sl said:

Did you ever consider that these labels are not clearly defined physical illnesses which you definitely have but are just vague models of what can and has happened after a lifetime of learning wrong?

You can settle into the definition you have of yourself and live off your parents/disability or try to fight your way out of it. I was in a similar sort of situation and it literally took about 5 years to get every area of my life up to an acceptable standard and I still have struggles, but my quality of life is a hell of a lot better now.

First step is getting ANY kind of job/education/training.

Click to expand...

Chris, there's huge ranges in such - I'd not assume he's on the mild end of the scale without knowing him pretty well in-person. And as I stated with myself which sounded similarly "deep in the hole" as Gav's - it was after I lost my ability to continue my career from health that it really hit me - I'd been running high as I was able to work. Work definitely CAN help, but it can also be a trigger at times as well. If I'd never had a meaningful career that I lost, I can't imagine I'd have fallen into the deep rut that I did when I lost it. Certainly wouldn't have felt as drastic regardless.

So I had severe depression and anxiety disorder, I'm sure I could have been diagnosed with other stuff if I pursued that. I could tell people to fuck off on FoH but not really interact with real life people, my parents had taught me fuck all on how to socialise as a kid and left me alone to do weird nerd stuff (writing down the numbers of buses I saw, tracing out maps, what the fuck!?).

Ended up living back in my childhood room playing WoW. It took time to realise that I had a serious problem and start taking steps to correct it, I'm still not fully out of it, you just have to keep taking the next step to recover because it's going to take 50 steps and years but everything will all start falling into place at the same time once you get functional. Exercise is another good starting point, such as learning to run a marathon which takes about 3 months.

It's totally anecdotal, not everyone can manage it, and of course it won't solve any biochemical issues, but both for myself and a few good friends of mine travelling the world for six months on the cheap really worked to clear up our depression. It was effectively a big emotional reset button. It forced us to break out of our hermit style lifecycle of video games and depression, exposing us to new stimulating sights/sounds/people/cultures. Seeing amazing wondrous things, living without any anxiety or responsibilities, and hanging/banging random backpacker chicks as you travel can lift almost any melancholy.. Just a thought. Depression is awful and there is no silver bullet, but travelling really helped for me an others.. You can do it on the cheap in Asia or Eastern Europe.

Cad_sl said:

So, your law office dropped you, you say? Did they say why?

...

Click to expand...

Because the way I act and communicate on the internet is a perfect reflection of the way I behave in real life.

It may help if you calm out on the internet as well. Although everyone acts a bit different online than in real life it is still a real life stressor you can put upon yourself unnecessarily.

Frenzied Wombat_sl said:

It's totally anecdotal, not everyone can manage it, and of course it won't solve any biochemical issues, but both for myself and a few good friends of mine travelling the world for six months on the cheap really worked to clear up our depression. It was effectively a big emotional reset button. It forced us to break out of our hermit style lifecycle of video games and depression, exposing us to new stimulating sights/sounds/people/cultures. Seeing amazing wondrous things, living without any anxiety or responsibilities, and hanging/banging random backpacker chicks as you travel can lift almost any melancholy.. Just a thought. Depression is awful and there is no silver bullet, but travelling really helped for me an others.. You can do it on the cheap in Asia or Eastern Europe.

Click to expand...

I think it needs to be said how hard it is to do ANYTHING while depressed though, I don't want this good advice to come across as "pull yourself together" which we all know is just shit and not helpful to hear.

I've thought about going travelling like this for years, I've also thought about programming a game/website or finally writing my book or ebaying my now valuable childhood toys or learning japanese... I haven't followed through on those and the list goes on. I did get onto a training course which led to a career, play MTG with real life people and get semi regular with running training though, just keep trying things until something sticks. Oh moving out of my parents house was a MASSIVE improvement in self esteem and my relationship with them as well.

I was depressed yesterday which brought me to this thread again, but there was a difference. Because my career/friendships/relationship are all OK (there are issues with some of them all but minimally acceptable), I didn't have a vulnerability, I had hope, so I just felt "sad" or "tired" rather than the previous soul crushing. This took 7 years from the worst of it.

Chris_sl said:

I think it needs to be said how hard it is to do ANYTHING while depressed though, I don't want this good advice to come across as "pull yourself together" which we all know is just shit and not helpful to hear.

I've thought about going travelling like this for years, I've also thought about programming a game/website or finally writing my book or ebaying my now valuable childhood toys or learning japanese... I haven't followed through on those and the list goes on. I did get onto a training course which led to a career, play MTG with real life people and get semi regular with running training though, just keep trying things until something sticks. Oh moving out of my parents house was a MASSIVE improvement in self esteem and my relationship with them as well.

I was depressed yesterday which brought me to this thread again, but there was a difference. Because my career/friendships/relationship are all OK (there are issues with some of them all but minimally acceptable), I didn't have a vulnerability, I had hope, so I just felt "sad" or "tired" rather than the previous soul crushing. This took 7 years from the worst of it.

Click to expand...

Yes, you're right, I should have mentioned that. I actually didn't want to travel-- I was stuck in a cycle of depression and apathy, with my only reason for living being Everquest. I was practically broke, disenchanted with my post university prospects, wasn't getting laid, was out of shape and overweight, etc. It was either as if I didn't want to be happy, or it was simply too much effort to do something that could potentially make me happy. It was just easier and safer to exist as is. It was ultimately pressure from both family and friends that got me moving, as well as realizing that short of living on the street I had hit rock bottom. I literally had nothing to lose, which when combined with the pressure caused me to cave. It was literally a life saving decision as I have no doubt my life would be different had I not gone. Same for my best friend that was in a huge depression after his divorce. Same thing, travelled the world for six months, met some hot South African chick during his travels, and ended up marrying her and moving to Australia. Best life decision he ever made.

Those other activities are good, but they aren't the reset button travel provides. When you're 3000 miles from home, trying to navigate the streets of Cairo or climbing the Nepalese mountains, you are FORCED out of your medium and comfort zone, and obliged to engage in sights, sounds, and languages you've never dealt with before.

Gavinmad_sl said:

There is no rebuilding. I'm a non-functional bi-polar with autism, adhd, and generalized anxiety disorder who was denied disability because I'm 'not disabled enough'. I'll be here until I die, unless my parents die first in which case I can finally kill myself.

Click to expand...

Until you are dead there is always the possibility of growth. I never applied for disability, but had those exact same issues. My bi-polar swings were getting worse and worse, which is why I originally looked into meditation. I didn't and still don't give two shits about the religious junk some folks associate with it. I wanted it purely for the calming aspect. If you do it and stick with it a while I honestly think you'd be able to get the same results. At its most basic it's just a mental exercise. Like any exercise regimen you start with a goal in mind and if you have the willpower to create the habit you can get there. The tendency to swing between mania and depression is still in me, but meditation helped me become very sensitive to those pulls and gave me the tools to rein everything back in to calmness.

The anxiety issues I had I was able to overcome by pretty much the same thing. The meditation exercises I did and still do were about emptying the mind. When you are able to do that you will be able to see the root of your anxieties. If it's a useful anxiety you can keep it and refocus it into something more positive. If it's not you can just excise it. We all have the option to care and not care about anything and everything, it's just a matter of whether we accept that responsibility or not.

Izo_sl said:

I disagree. It is platitudes. Religious platitudes. Masked as eastern philosophy. You're not exactly the first Buddhist to claim meditation can cure depression. You're fractally wrong in assuming Dharma, the teachings of Buddha, when it concerns the aethiology of depression is anything but religious nonsense. Throwing around words like 'fundamental truth' and 'properly understand', as well as the non-sequitur nature of this reasoning are a tell tale signs. Tell you what: understanding of the human brain, anatomy, physiology, biochemistry does not come from meditation. Nor does imaging techniques, CT, MRI. Your, Buddha's, explanation model for depression which demonstrably has a mutifactorial aethiology, is hogwash, a meaningless simplification. Meditation can be a fine symptomatic treatment, a coping strategy, en pas with cognitive therapy and, imho, best left to secular psychologists. Meditaion it's by no means the universal cure you religious nuts would attribute it. Now that would be simple math to someone with medical knowledge.

Care to spin the Chopra wheel of platitudes again?

Click to expand...

I'm agnostic as far as religions go, so no, it's not about that. I went into meditation for a singular purpose, the actual tangible benefits it could offer as a sedative when I was suffering increasingly severe bi-polar mood swings. Desire being the root of all suffering is actually something anyone can verify on their own. It's not a platitude, it's an observable truth. If it wasn't something I could verify I would toss it like anything else.

Moonarchia_sl said:

I'm agnostic as far as religions go, so no, it's not about that. I went into meditation for a singular purpose, the actual tangible benefits it could offer as a sedative when I was suffering increasingly severe bi-polar mood swings. Desire being the root of all suffering is actually something anyone can verify on their own. It's not a platitude, it's an observable truth. If it wasn't something I could verify I would toss it like anything else.

Click to expand...

You mean well. Your wording just rubs me the wrong way. Meditation as a symptomatic coping strategy, en pas with cognitive therapy, works for some, sure.

As for the cognitive instruction and treatment, imho, it is best left to a secular psychologist, and often a psychiatrist too for the pharmacological aspect. Trained professionals. Not selfproclaimed meditation experts who have not applied lex parsimoniae to their explanatory models - disease and treatment.

The 'truth you speak of is a relabeling of the cognitive processing which is already well described in the neuroscientific litterature, behavioral patterns etc. Further attributing this to a broad and meaningless label, desire, is a gross oversimplification - something seen in Buddhism.

TLDR; Meditation is fine as a tool. The efficacy and valid application is not ascertained from anecdotes alone.

Are you fucking serious with this shit? He comes swooping in a day late with empty platitudes and a dismissive, unhelpful attitude and I'm just supposed to smile and say thanks for all the great advice? I didn't ask for his advice or any advice at all for that matter, I listed my problems to help Troll get some perspective and answered direct queries from Vaclav and Moonarchia.

I might not have objected to an infraction for being a bit too harsh with Troll, but this? You can fuck right off too.

Hey Gav, you should add Tourettes to your resum?. Carte blanche to say bad words. We'll get Mario to sign off on the diag. You'll be untouchable, Gavinstrongbad

Here's some naughty words for Tarrant to be offended by.

Column_sl said:

Gavin is like the kids with turrets. Yeah he's shouting at everyone to go fuck their mom's in the ass, but people just ignore it.

I never even thought about it till you brought it up.

Click to expand...

Column probably reported you.

Gavinmad_sl said:

Are you fucking serious with this shit?

Click to expand...

I just recognised some negative thinking patterns which I share(d) and wanted to help since I'm part way out of the hole now. I don't think anyone should be giving up but I know it's easy to say that and hard to actually start making those first steps out.