Depression

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The_Black_Log Foler

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Ketamine is a recreational class A drug here in the UK. Not my thing, only tried it a couple of times and never saw the point but I knew a lot of people that would be on it every weekend.

You can't just tell people to randomly try it on a message board, lol
To clarify I think he's referring to the recently approved fda nasal spray used to treat depression. Think there's some confusion there.
 

Ossoi

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To clarify I think he's referring to the recently approved fda nasal spray used to treat depression. Think there's some confusion there.

OK Ketamine-Like Nasal Spray Worries Physicians

I wasn't aware of "esketamine" which is what is being used in the US as the treatment, although apparently it's chemically identical to ketamine. Club slang for the dissociated effects is "k-holing" - I've seen people totally passed out in clubs as a result.
 

The_Black_Log Foler

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Someone try it and report back. Kinda curious.
OK Ketamine-Like Nasal Spray Worries Physicians

I wasn't aware of "esketamine" which is what is being used in the US as the treatment, although apparently it's chemically identical to ketamine. Club slang for the dissociated effects is "k-holing" - I've seen people totally passed out in clubs as a result.
Ya, was reading the subreddit on it and apparently it's administered in psych office and you gotta sit there for 2 hours while you trip.

Does not sound like my first route I'd take to treating depression..
 

Ossoi

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Someone try it and report back. Kinda curious.

Ya, was reading the subreddit on it and apparently it's administered in psych office and you gotta sit there for 2 hours while you trip.

Does not sound like my first route I'd take to treating depression..

Yeah, the only time I tried it was back in my apartment after a night out. I went to take a piss, had a conversation with the toilet whilst I was pissing, went back into my living room, my friend who was a heavy user was asleep/passed out and I went to bed.

Heavy ketamine users here end up with serious bowel issues.
 

The_Black_Log Foler

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Yeah, the only time I tried it was back in my apartment after a night out. I went to take a piss, had a conversation with the toilet whilst I was pissing, went back into my living room, my friend who was a heavy user was asleep/passed out and I went to bed.

Heavy ketamine users here end up with serious bowel issues.
Ya fuck that. Sounds terrible.
 

Arden

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Ketamine is a recreational class A drug here in the UK. Not my thing, only tried it a couple of times and never saw the point but I knew a lot of people that would be on it every weekend.

You can't just tell people to randomly try it on a message board, lol

Sure you can. The form I'm referencing is a legal and prescribable treatment drug here in the states. Read the wiki. Yes, keta has been used for years and years as a recreational drug ("special K"), but like a lot of other drugs that are used recreationally, there are legit therapeutic uses. You thought I was instructing people to talk to their doctor about obtaining an illegal recreational drug??

"Hey doc! Any idea where I can get my hands on some sweet black tar heroin?!"
 
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pharmakos

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OK Ketamine-Like Nasal Spray Worries Physicians

I wasn't aware of "esketamine" which is what is being used in the US as the treatment, although apparently it's chemically identical to ketamine. Club slang for the dissociated effects is "k-holing" - I've seen people totally passed out in clubs as a result.

Beginner stereochem:

"esketamine"/"S-ketamine" is identical to "ketamine" in the same way that "right handed gloves" are identical to "gloves"

S-/R- and D-/L- are the common shorthands you're gonna see fairly often for describing symmetrical pairs, any time you see that tacked on the beginning of a drug name it means "we're talking about just left gloves instead of all gloves"
 

TheBeagle

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Beginner stereochem:

"esketamine"/"S-ketamine" is identical to "ketamine" in the same way that "right handed gloves" are identical to "gloves"

S-/R- and D-/L- are the common shorthands you're gonna see fairly often for describing symmetrical pairs, any time you see that tacked on the beginning of a drug name it means "we're talking about just left gloves instead of all gloves"
Steroisomers can have VERY different reactions in biochem. Definitely not the same thing. That's what happened with Thalidomide babies in the 60's. One of the enantiomers treated morning sickness, the other made your developing fetus a carnival freak show.
 
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pharmakos

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Steroisomers can have VERY different reactions in biochem. Definitely not the same thing. That's what happened with Thalidomide babies in the 60's. One of the enantiomers treated morning sickness, the other made your developing fetus a carnival freak show.

Yeah, true, tho I wasn't claiming "all stereoisomers are interchangeable." Just that typically in 2019 when you see "DrugX" and then 10 years later see "S-DrugX" you can probably assume it's mostly similar in effect. Yeah, not even every time (not going to get a buzz on levomethamphetamine from a Vicks inhaler haha) Your information is good to caution drug manufacturers, I'm just giving narrow every-day-useful chem info that might matter to an average consumer.

But now we're beyond the scope of this thread I suppose.

To bring the conversation around back home: Lexapro is just S-Effexor :). And that means that Effexor is 50% Lexapro/S-Effexor and 50% L-Effexor (like a box of gloves has 50% right gloves and 50% left gloves)
 
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Borzak

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Guess I'm going to have to bite the bullet and go to a psychiatrist. The problem so far is a doctor like a neurologist will prescribe his/her goto antidepressent and if it doesn't work or you can't take it they say go to a psychiatrist.

It's starting to stack up pretty well. In the past I knew I was depressed but I just went on with life and pretty much avoided people. I really can't do that anymore. Starting to bleed over into my new marriage. She's talking of moving to an area more favorable to my mental health. That's exactly what I don't want to happen. She worked 20 years to get where she wanted in this town.

I'm in a posistion now of having to get out and meet actual people that are not involved in business and such. I know that sounds incredibly odd to most people. Difficult for me.
 
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Picasso3

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When you talk to people try to keep the focus of the discussion on them.
 
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iannis

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That gets awkward when two people employ that in a conversation but it works 95% of the time.

And that 5% someone will break it with, "oh, we're both doing it.". Then you might actually have an interesting conversation.
 

The_Black_Log Foler

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When you talk to people try to keep the focus of the discussion on them.
Not sure I understand. What is this in response to? Trying to win friends and influence people?
 

pharmakos

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Is your name pharmakos by chance because you're a pharmacist?

I'd someday like to work in pharmaceutical research, weird life dream I guess but hey. Was in school working towards that (tho still just in undergrad since I was starting all over) when I got sick with cancer four years ago now, and now I'm still going through that. So apparently some of my old knowledge got jumbled up by the chemo, lol.

But alternately, the word's original origin had nothing to do with pharmaceuticals, but rather "pharmakos" was the name of a scapegoating/outcasting ritual in ancient Greece. it's only through the passage of time that it got it's current life as a prefix for drugs.

All that made me pick it as a cool name for an erudite necromancer about a decade ago now, fitting their lore of being outcast from Erudin. I got to be known online by that character's Nick and it just stuck since then

Here's the long copypasta I always give for people that ask about my name:

Pharmakos, in Greek religion, a human scapegoat used in certain state rituals. In Athens, for example, a man and a woman who were considered ugly were selected as scapegoats each year. At the festival of the Thargelia in May or June, they were feasted, led round the town, beaten with green twigs, and driven out or killed with stones. The practice in Colophon, on the coast of Asia Minor (the part of modern Turkey that lies in Asia) was described by the 6th-century-bc poet Hipponax (fragments 5-11). An especially ugly man was honoured by the community with a feast of figs, barley soup, and cheese. Then he was whipped with fig branches, with care that he was hit seven times on his phallus, before being driven out of town. (Medieval sources said that the Colophonian pharmakos was burned and his ashes scattered in the sea.) The custom was meant to rid the place annually of ill luck.

The 5th-century Athenian practice of ostracism has been described as a rationalized and democratic form of the custom. The biblical practice of driving the scapegoat from the community, described in Leviticus 16, gave a name to this widespread custom, which was said by the French intellectual Ren? Girard to explain the basis of all human societies.

---------------------------

A pharmak?s (Greek: ????????, plural pharmakoi) in Ancient Greek religion was the ritualistic sacrifice or exile of a human scapegoat or victim.

A slave, a cripple or a criminal was chosen and expelled from the community at times of disaster (famine, invasion or plague) or at times of calendrical crisis. It was believed that this would bring about purification. On the first day of the Thargelia, a festival of Apollo at Athens, two men, the Pharmakoi, were led out as if to be sacrificed as an expiation.

Some scholia state that pharmakoi were actually sacrificed (thrown from a cliff or burned), but many modern scholars reject this, arguing that the earliest source for the pharmakos (the iambic satirist Hipponax) shows the pharmakoi being beaten and stoned, but not executed. A more plausible explanation would be that sometimes they were executed and sometimes not, depending on the attitude of the victim. For instance, a deliberate unrepentant murderer would most likely be put to death.[citation needed]

In Aesop in Delphi (1961), Anton Wiechers discussed the parallels between the legendary biography of Aesop (in which he is unjustly tried and executed by the Delphians) and the pharmakos ritual. For example, Aesop is grotesquely deformed, as was the pharmakoi in some traditions; and Aesop was thrown from a cliff, as was the pharmakoi in some traditions.

Gregory Nagy, in Best of the Achaeans (1979), compared Aesop's pharmakos death to the "worst" of the Achaeans in the Iliad, Thersites. More recently, both Daniel Ogden, The Crooked Kings of Ancient Greece (1997) and Todd Compton, Victim of the Muses: Poet as Scapegoat, Warrior and Hero (2006) examine poet pharmakoi. Compton surveys important poets who were exiled, executed or suffered unjust trials, either in history, legend or Greek or Indo-European myth.

------------------------------

[1] The chain, pharmakeia-pharmakon-pharmakeus, appears several times in Plato's texts. A word not directly or literally used by Plato is pharmakos, which means 'scapegoat'. According to Derrida, that it is not used by Plato does not indicate that the word is necessarily absent. Certain forces of association unite the words that are 'actually present' in a text with all the other words in the lexical system, whether or not they appear as words in such discourse. The textual chain is not simply 'internal' to Plato's lexicon. One can say that all the 'pharmaceutical' words do actually make themselves present in the text. 'It is in the back room, in the shadows of the pharmacy, prior to the oppositions between conscious and unconscious, freedom and constraint, voluntary and involuntary, speech and language, that these textual 'operations' occur' (Dissemination, p.129). Derrida places the opposites, presence-absence and inside-outside, under great pressure. If the word pharmakos that Plato does not use still resonates within the text, then there can be no matter of a text being closed upon itself. What do 'absent' and 'present' mean when the outside is always already part of the inside, at work on the inside?

[2] In ancient Athens, the character and the ritual of the pharmakos had the task of expelling and shutting out the evil (out of the body and out of the city). The Athenians maintained several outcasts at the public expense. When plague, famine, drought or other calamities befell the city, they sacrificed some of the outcasts as a purification and a remedy. The pharmakos, the scapegoat, was led to the outside of the city and killed in order to purify the city's interior. The evil that had affected the inside of the city from the outside, was thus returned to the outside in order to protect the inside. But the representative of the outside (the pharmakos) was nonetheless kept in the very heart of the inside, the city. In order to be led out of the city, the scapegoat must have already been within the city. 'The ceremony of the pharmakos is thus played out on the boundary line between the inside and the outside, which it has as its function ceaselessly to trace and retrace' (Dissemination, p.133). At the same time, the pharmakos is on the borderl between sacred and cursed, '... beneficial insofar as he cures - and for that, venerated and cared for - harmful insofar as he incarnates the powers of evil - and for that, feared and treated with caution' (Dissemination, p.133). He is the benefactor who heals and he is the criminal who incarnates the powers of evil. The pharmakos is like a medicine in that he 'cures' the impurity of the city, but he is, at the same time, a poison, an evil. Pharmakos. Pharmakon. Undecidables. Both words carry within themselves more than one meaning. Conflicting meanings.

[3] Pharmakos does not only mean scapegoat. It is also synonymous for pharmakeus, or wizard, magician, poisoner. In Plato's dialogues, Socrates is often portrayed as a pharmakeus. Socrates is considered as one who knows how to perform magic with words. His words act as a pharmakon (as a remedy, or as a poison?) and permeate the soul of the listener. In Phaedrus, he fiercely objects to the ill effects of writing. He compares writing to a pharmakon, a drug, a poison: writing repeats without knowing. Socrates suggests a different pharmakon, a medicine: dialectics, the philosophical dialogue. This, he claims, can lead one to true knowledge, the truth of the eidos, that which is identical to itself, always the same as itself, invariable. This is the message of Socrates to the city of Athens. He acts as a magician (pharmakos) - Socrates himself speaks about a divine or supernatural voice that comes to him - and his most famous medicine (pharmakon) is speech, dialectics and dialogue that will lead to knowledge and truth.

But Socrates also becomes Athen's most famous 'other' pharmakos, the scapegoat. He becomes a stranger, even an enemy who does not speak the proper language of the other citizens. He is an other; not the absolute other, the barbarian, but the other (the outside) who is very near, who is already on the inside. According to several prominent Athenians, he was of bad moral and political influence. His constant criticism undermined the faith in democracy of many Athenians. In 399 BC, Socrates was charged with introducing new gods and corrupting the young and sentenced to death. Having accused him as a force of evil, Athens killed him to keep itself intact. Athens kills the pharmakos (both the magician and the scapegoat).

Spoiler alert: the name went on to be "Pharmakeus," a synonym for a sorcerer or potion maker, and later "Pharmakon," a general term for any cosmetic or drug-like item for sale.

Oh, and Aesop and Socrates were probably killed in pharmakoi rituals
 
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The_Black_Log Foler

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I'd someday like to work in pharmaceutical research, weird life dream I guess but hey. Was in school working towards that (tho still just in undergrad since I was starting all over) when I got sick with cancer four years ago now, and now I'm still going through that. So apparently some of my old knowledge got jumbled up by the chemo, lol.

But alternately, the word's original origin had nothing to do with pharmaceuticals, but rather "pharmakos" was the name of a scapegoating/outcasting ritual in ancient Greece. it's only through the passage of time that it got it's current life as a prefix for drugs.

All that made me pick it as a cool name for an erudite necromancer about a decade ago now, fitting their lore of being outcast from Erudin. I got to be known online by that character's Nick and it just stuck since then

Here's the long copypasta I always give for people that ask about my name:

Pharmakos, in Greek religion, a human scapegoat used in certain state rituals. In Athens, for example, a man and a woman who were considered ugly were selected as scapegoats each year. At the festival of the Thargelia in May or June, they were feasted, led round the town, beaten with green twigs, and driven out or killed with stones. The practice in Colophon, on the coast of Asia Minor (the part of modern Turkey that lies in Asia) was described by the 6th-century-bc poet Hipponax (fragments 5-11). An especially ugly man was honoured by the community with a feast of figs, barley soup, and cheese. Then he was whipped with fig branches, with care that he was hit seven times on his phallus, before being driven out of town. (Medieval sources said that the Colophonian pharmakos was burned and his ashes scattered in the sea.) The custom was meant to rid the place annually of ill luck.

The 5th-century Athenian practice of ostracism has been described as a rationalized and democratic form of the custom. The biblical practice of driving the scapegoat from the community, described in Leviticus 16, gave a name to this widespread custom, which was said by the French intellectual Ren? Girard to explain the basis of all human societies.

---------------------------

A pharmak?s (Greek: ????????, plural pharmakoi) in Ancient Greek religion was the ritualistic sacrifice or exile of a human scapegoat or victim.

A slave, a cripple or a criminal was chosen and expelled from the community at times of disaster (famine, invasion or plague) or at times of calendrical crisis. It was believed that this would bring about purification. On the first day of the Thargelia, a festival of Apollo at Athens, two men, the Pharmakoi, were led out as if to be sacrificed as an expiation.

Some scholia state that pharmakoi were actually sacrificed (thrown from a cliff or burned), but many modern scholars reject this, arguing that the earliest source for the pharmakos (the iambic satirist Hipponax) shows the pharmakoi being beaten and stoned, but not executed. A more plausible explanation would be that sometimes they were executed and sometimes not, depending on the attitude of the victim. For instance, a deliberate unrepentant murderer would most likely be put to death.[citation needed]

In Aesop in Delphi (1961), Anton Wiechers discussed the parallels between the legendary biography of Aesop (in which he is unjustly tried and executed by the Delphians) and the pharmakos ritual. For example, Aesop is grotesquely deformed, as was the pharmakoi in some traditions; and Aesop was thrown from a cliff, as was the pharmakoi in some traditions.

Gregory Nagy, in Best of the Achaeans (1979), compared Aesop's pharmakos death to the "worst" of the Achaeans in the Iliad, Thersites. More recently, both Daniel Ogden, The Crooked Kings of Ancient Greece (1997) and Todd Compton, Victim of the Muses: Poet as Scapegoat, Warrior and Hero (2006) examine poet pharmakoi. Compton surveys important poets who were exiled, executed or suffered unjust trials, either in history, legend or Greek or Indo-European myth.

------------------------------

[1] The chain, pharmakeia-pharmakon-pharmakeus, appears several times in Plato's texts. A word not directly or literally used by Plato is pharmakos, which means 'scapegoat'. According to Derrida, that it is not used by Plato does not indicate that the word is necessarily absent. Certain forces of association unite the words that are 'actually present' in a text with all the other words in the lexical system, whether or not they appear as words in such discourse. The textual chain is not simply 'internal' to Plato's lexicon. One can say that all the 'pharmaceutical' words do actually make themselves present in the text. 'It is in the back room, in the shadows of the pharmacy, prior to the oppositions between conscious and unconscious, freedom and constraint, voluntary and involuntary, speech and language, that these textual 'operations' occur' (Dissemination, p.129). Derrida places the opposites, presence-absence and inside-outside, under great pressure. If the word pharmakos that Plato does not use still resonates within the text, then there can be no matter of a text being closed upon itself. What do 'absent' and 'present' mean when the outside is always already part of the inside, at work on the inside?

[2] In ancient Athens, the character and the ritual of the pharmakos had the task of expelling and shutting out the evil (out of the body and out of the city). The Athenians maintained several outcasts at the public expense. When plague, famine, drought or other calamities befell the city, they sacrificed some of the outcasts as a purification and a remedy. The pharmakos, the scapegoat, was led to the outside of the city and killed in order to purify the city's interior. The evil that had affected the inside of the city from the outside, was thus returned to the outside in order to protect the inside. But the representative of the outside (the pharmakos) was nonetheless kept in the very heart of the inside, the city. In order to be led out of the city, the scapegoat must have already been within the city. 'The ceremony of the pharmakos is thus played out on the boundary line between the inside and the outside, which it has as its function ceaselessly to trace and retrace' (Dissemination, p.133). At the same time, the pharmakos is on the borderl between sacred and cursed, '... beneficial insofar as he cures - and for that, venerated and cared for - harmful insofar as he incarnates the powers of evil - and for that, feared and treated with caution' (Dissemination, p.133). He is the benefactor who heals and he is the criminal who incarnates the powers of evil. The pharmakos is like a medicine in that he 'cures' the impurity of the city, but he is, at the same time, a poison, an evil. Pharmakos. Pharmakon. Undecidables. Both words carry within themselves more than one meaning. Conflicting meanings.

[3] Pharmakos does not only mean scapegoat. It is also synonymous for pharmakeus, or wizard, magician, poisoner. In Plato's dialogues, Socrates is often portrayed as a pharmakeus. Socrates is considered as one who knows how to perform magic with words. His words act as a pharmakon (as a remedy, or as a poison?) and permeate the soul of the listener. In Phaedrus, he fiercely objects to the ill effects of writing. He compares writing to a pharmakon, a drug, a poison: writing repeats without knowing. Socrates suggests a different pharmakon, a medicine: dialectics, the philosophical dialogue. This, he claims, can lead one to true knowledge, the truth of the eidos, that which is identical to itself, always the same as itself, invariable. This is the message of Socrates to the city of Athens. He acts as a magician (pharmakos) - Socrates himself speaks about a divine or supernatural voice that comes to him - and his most famous medicine (pharmakon) is speech, dialectics and dialogue that will lead to knowledge and truth.

But Socrates also becomes Athen's most famous 'other' pharmakos, the scapegoat. He becomes a stranger, even an enemy who does not speak the proper language of the other citizens. He is an other; not the absolute other, the barbarian, but the other (the outside) who is very near, who is already on the inside. According to several prominent Athenians, he was of bad moral and political influence. His constant criticism undermined the faith in democracy of many Athenians. In 399 BC, Socrates was charged with introducing new gods and corrupting the young and sentenced to death. Having accused him as a force of evil, Athens killed him to keep itself intact. Athens kills the pharmakos (both the magician and the scapegoat).

Spoiler alert: the name went on to be "Pharmakeus," a synonym for a sorcerer or potion maker, and later "Pharmakon," a general term for any cosmetic or drug-like item for sale.

Oh, and Aesop and Socrates were probably killed in pharmakoi rituals
Thank you for sharing and fuck cancer.
 
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Borzak

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That gets awkward when two people employ that in a conversation but it works 95% of the time.

And that 5% someone will break it with, "oh, we're both doing it.". Then you might actually have an interesting conversation.

I know how to meet people. I've done it lots of times. It's just something I rather not do.
For whatever reason people confide in me early on the oddest of things. Especially when it comes to them breaking the law or screwing over someone.
 
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