DOTA 2

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eXarc

Trakanon Raider
1,605
502
This game is so infuriating as a 10 year vet but casual player. People screaming over mic giving orders when they don't even understand the literal basics of map awareness, farming, supporting, anything. I took an abandon rather than finish a game. I was trying to support a 4 carry team as well which didn't help. I just wish I could be placed into a 'Vet' MMR category where I can be laid back and not hound MMR but not be surrounded by ex-LoL players 4 months into DoTA giving incorrect orders at high pitches all the time. Shit fuck.
 

Gravel

Mr. Poopybutthole
39,409
129,644
All this talk about ranked being much easier has me wanting to play ranked again. I've probably played about 150 bot games in the last month and a half because I was burnt out on ranked matches.

I was climbing pretty fast as was (about 75% win rate). If it's even better now, I shouldn't lose!
 

eXarc

Trakanon Raider
1,605
502
9-1 W/L with Brood feels good man. Pub randos just have zero clue how to counter. Only had 1 game where someone even tried to buy wards. Lol.
 

drtyrm

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,991
155
I had a duo in one of my pubs go safelane, Monkey King + Rubick. Support Rubick with standard Wind Lace only item start. Into Midas. Y'know. It's the meta. He told me so. Oh, Monkey King went 1st item Midas too. Gotta get those talents!
 

Luthair

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,247
85
New Na`Vi roster, Pajkatt, Dendi, GeneRal, rmN and Biver. I have nfc about the supports but seems like a pretty strong core lineup.
 

Ossoi

Potato del Grande
<Rickshaw Potatoes>
17,713
8,754
so Techies was always my favourite Dota1 player but never found him effective in Dota 2.

New Techies is a blast to play and the mine changes really improved the hero. Proximity mines being visible is irrelevant because you just mine the edges of trees or uphill. Instead of stacking mines at one location the idea is to create lanes/paths/alleys of doom and to saturate areas of the map with them.

I've only played unranked so far on normal skill and can normally get soul ring, arcanes, euls and aghs by 25 minutes. Then you get the gold and xp talents and octarine.

Gonna give ranked a go now
 

BrotherWu

MAGA
<Silver Donator>
3,259
6,502
Sub 1000 MMR is an interesting hell. After 4 lost matches in a row playing hard support, I decided to change it up and try out techies in ranked. First, though, co op against bots. I somehow was the only one not feeding and we lost. We lost. To bots.
 
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Dandain

Trakanon Raider
2,092
917
Hard support will not win you games consistently at low mmr for a single reason. People literally don't group up to end the game at all. 5 man team wipe of the enemy? Separate and last hit in allied jungle. If you want to "support" in low tier, just play a scaling greedy caster with flash farm, and just buy the wards/place them. But do not let last hits go to waste in a lane where no ally is farming, and also kill jungle camps if all they want to do is kill jungle camps. Resist doing 2-3 man ganks beyond or into enemy territory, because just like your allies, the enemy has a bunch of people who just want last hits.

TLDR; Low MMR games end randomly when the right people feed with enough time elapsed so that people are close to being 6 slotted and feeling like they single handedly won the game. Alternatively pick supports that can kill buildings. Agh's' Refresher Shadowshaman will take barracks for example, even from the 5 position late enough.
 

Gravel

Mr. Poopybutthole
39,409
129,644
Yeah, I've found that the only way to play a support and consistently win in shit tier is to play a scaling support that can convert into a core. Something like Mirana, Abadon, or Venge are decent picks for that. Basically play the start of the game like a support (buy courier, wards) but then play greedy as shit the rest of the game.

A position 4 Mirana who gets an Agh's before minute 20 is hard to beat (and more than likely finishes the game as the 2 or 3).
 

BrotherWu

MAGA
<Silver Donator>
3,259
6,502
I freely admit that I am still learning. I feel pretty comfortable in Omni, Lock, Crystal but it just doesn't pan out. I keep losing and my MMR just keeps dropping. Faggots start bitching about vision and I'm fucking buying totems as fast as I can. Before you know it, they're all "REPORT CM!" It's like they don't even know there is a timer on them. Before you know it, Crystal is 0-4 because the fags are all fucking jungling and announcing what their next purchase is going to be rather than going after the other team.

But, yeah, I think you are right. In this tier, although those three have high win rates, I am gimping myself by playing them and I'm just caught in a death spiral. I did much better with BS and DP back in the day.

Have you guys had any luck with coaches?
 

Dandain

Trakanon Raider
2,092
917
Don't let 1k mmr players tell you how to play. They know as much about the game as you do, they are blind to plenty of things. Even if wards are perfect, they do not have the map awareness to take advantage. Hard support is not farming nothing and only buying wards for 50 minutes. You still have to know when to last hit, and succeed at it as support. If you're in a lane that has 2 free waves, if you miss all 8 last hits that's a lot of gold. A 6k hard support is going to go 8 for 8 or 7 for 8. Its not your job to have 300 cs, but if you have 50 vs 10 that's a big deal.

Hard support is not really a 1kmmr position. I guarantee even if you have 4 farming idiots on your team some lane or jungle camp is going to waste in the course of the game. That's a symptom of the bracket, vs a feature of the game. The reason the 5 position exists in higher level dota is because the 6 cores on the map plus the other support are consuming the vast majority of the maps resources. You don't last hit as a hard 5 often at 6k because there is nothing for you to last hit. Your time is spent moving around the map, helping lanes, warding/dewarding. But those things function because as was mentioned the cores slowly become good enough that they don't let resources go to waste.

If you find yourself playing a weak support in a game, you need to hide in trees behind one of your cores, or hang out near a tower so that you can participate in a gank attempt on your core, but not be the opening target. You will always get picked off by shadowblade slark etc if you're visible and in front or alone. People do attack the first thing they see at 1k.

I have coached many people since 2011, it boils down to this. Dota is so hard, that even if you know something that doesn't mean you can do it. It takes a lot of focused repetion to build all the subskills mechanically and that doesn't include all the details about how any given hero needs to fight or play in any given game. Example: Storm spirit is easy to play relatively speaking against zero stuns and silences. However, he's quite a bit harder to play if you get counter picked and people use their picks to prioritize shutting down this hero. When someone gains enough experience to be pro tier basically, they know how to make the best out of bad situations. Anyone can shitstomp from ahead. Its how you recover when you get behind that separates players a great deal. This is true even at 1k 2k 3k 4k, but its more pronounced and easier to understand when you see things like Sumail getting killed 4 times in 5 minutes only to recover and dominate the rest of the game.

Also, its difficult to be coached for many people. You must be intellectually honest about the aspects of the game you control. You must be able to look back on a game and be critical of your play in a constructive way. Personal benchmarks are necessary and useful to judge your own progress as you will never escape roughly 50% winrate unless you're a smurf account who is already a 4.5k+ player or super outlier such as pros who breach 6k+. Improving at dota for a very long time, and I mean even into 5k region+ is still about increasing your personal performance. That's not easy to do in games where people rage at you, or feed, or just generally bad experiences when you lose. Given that 50% of your games are losses however, if you're not learning in them they are wasted time.

If you want, I can coach you for a game(s). I can literally be in your ear for 40 minutes about what you should be doing/looking in real time. As a warning this will overwhelm you massively. I am only 4.5k, which is pretty good at dota, but clearly far from the pros. At 1k MMR there are multiple routes to improvement you can persue. These include game knowledge (do you know what the items/enemies actually do to you sufficiently that you approach fights in ways that give you maximum win potential. Example: When Necrophos is in a game. He's a hero that must be burst dead by your team, Unless he has no farm, a necro that sits around in a fight will most likely win it eventually. Bristleback: Do you understand the stacking nature of quills, warpath, and bristleback so that your team doesn't kill itself by procing stack after stack while doing reduced damage hitting him from behind?

You can also pursue mechanical ability and awareness of the field of play. You can pursue coaching up your team as its moral officer with the focus of trying to herd your allies to 5 man when you know the team has a strategic lead and can win 5v5's with fullmana/ultimates. This also includes getting people to retreat, heal, get ultis back after a big win. Often players in your bracket will win a fight, keep pushing and ultimately feed their lives back 2v5 after the enemy has all respawned. These are some simple things that if you keep your team from doing/don't do yourself actually will win you a game now and then. That now and then game slowly increases your MMR as you begin to win games you would have lost in the past from even just a simple bad decision late.

This was a giant wall sorry about that.
 
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Gravel

Mr. Poopybutthole
39,409
129,644
What's your SteamID? I've been playing the shit out of bot games, because I stopped caring about playing against people anymore.
 

Luthair

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,247
85
Sub 1000 MMR is an interesting hell. After 4 lost matches in a row playing hard support, I decided to change it up and try out techies in ranked. First, though, co op against bots. I somehow was the only one not feeding and we lost. We lost. To bots.

I haven't played since the rework (trying to avoid mouse usage) but from what I've seen techies still isn't a hero in fights. Unless you can plan (e.g. high ground) or lure people into a trap your team is playing 4v5 dota.

I freely admit that I am still learning. I feel pretty comfortable in Omni, Lock, Crystal but it just doesn't pan out. I keep losing and my MMR just keeps dropping. Faggots start bitching about vision and I'm fucking buying totems as fast as I can. Before you know it, they're all "REPORT CM!" It's like they don't even know there is a timer on them. Before you know it, Crystal is 0-4 because the fags are all fucking jungling and announcing what their next purchase is going to be rather than going after the other team.

But, yeah, I think you are right. In this tier, although those three have high win rates, I am gimping myself by playing them and I'm just caught in a death spiral. I did much better with BS and DP back in the day.

Have you guys had any luck with coaches?

Maiden is generally considered to be a bad hero these days and unless you're playing some sort of weird Omniknight core he needs to be paired with a strong carry. Warlock seems like he would be decent since your opponents aren't likely to time the ultimate, and golems can take objectives after a fight - buy midas if you aren't.

Dandain/Rethan is right about gold too, a way to think about it is like compound interest - it isn't linear, gold lets you earn more faster (which is also why you shouldn't rush a very expensive item first, having brown boots with 5k in the bank will put you behind). An untapped resource might be enemy heroes, you could consider playing something with solo pick-off potential - Pudge, Slardar, Spirit Breaker, falling behind would leave you in a difficult spot though.

Another thought might be picking heroes which players find difficult to deal with, heroes with invisibility like Riki (Mirana ultimate in fights), with annoying mechanics like Treant w/ aghs, bloodseeker generally, or heroes that punish inattention like Pudge & Mirana. Mirana is probably good pick generally as she can play a variety of positions, has an escape, is annoying in fights, one assumes 1k players are easy to arrow, plus you can also use arrow to farm big creeps if you fall behind.
 

Dandain

Trakanon Raider
2,092
917
Intrinsic can warn you away or encourage you to subject yourself to a game with me coaching if that ultimately does interest you. He played Razor once with me over his shoulder, and its definitely too fucking stressful for both parties to do every game, but I think if he got anything out of it specifically its just how much shit that must be balance in this game, and how a few wasted seconds here and there add up to massive differences as the game progresses.
 

Intrinsic

Person of Whiteness
<Gold Donor>
15,031
13,125
That Razor game was hilarious though.

My tips on coaching are this:

Having one to 1-on-1 you during a game can be beneficial if you already mostly know what to do or need some fine tuning. Just having someone tell you every move to make, where to go, what skills to use, what to buy, really probably isn't teaching you anything. You can also be less focused on what mistakes you're usually making (thus making more) and focused on your coach. It isn't a very natural way to play the game if you're learning.

My alternative would be to jump on Teamspeak with Dandain and watch a replay together. That way you can discuss what your decision making process was, where you were looking on the map and actually see where the enemy was, pause and talk about strategies, etc... Maybe even a game you lost to see where you went wrong.

No one yelling in your ear will make you last hit better or teamfight better. The mechanical stuff you just have to practice over and over and it wouldn't be the best use of time to practice that live with a coach.
 
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Genjiro

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
5,218
5,066
That's all great advice, seriously, but I found one of the best things that helped me early on was just playing bot games on the hardest difficulty and going mid and just learning how to last hit a lot better. I did this for a week, and when I went back into games vs people you just steamroll them at lower mmr because you outfarm them massively. You can also practice stacking jungle camps etc like Intrinsic said without worrying about cancerous 13 year olds yelling non stop for 40 minutes.

It also helps to limit yourself to a few heroes, last hit animations can be a lot harder with some than others (like drow or clinkz) vs most melee heroes. There is a sniper challenge to last hit which is pretty fun to try. I feel like once you can get that down, your mind isnt so focused on it and it allows your map presence/awareness to increase because you arent so focused on getting gold, controlling the lane etc, it just becomes natural.

Im not great by any means, I dont play nearly what I did and time away from dota really does erode your skill...but thats just my 2c. Good luck.
 
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