DOTA 2

Dandain

Dandain

Trakanon Raider
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Weaponsfree_sl said:
If he abuses newbness you'd expect him to have a higher winrate in pubdota, not lower. A lot of the things you said conflicted. He's completely broken and it's why he eats bans, and in H and VH he's annoying and effective in the hands of people who have hundreds of games played with him.

Split pushing is hard on pretty much everyone but tinker.

And his TP is on a 20 second cooldown at level 4. It's just if it gets interrupted by shuriken, a stun, or whatever, it should DEFINITELY go on CD. Instead he just keeps on trying to cast it. He doesn't even lose mana till after the spell is cast. It's unnecessary and if it got changed to a normal spell wherein if you got stunned it went on CD and you lost the mana, it would still be an absurdly powerful 20 second cooldown teleport.
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Getting beaten or abused by splitpush with a np with a shadowblade, is 100% the defending teams fault aka newbness. He abuses the inability of teams to properly defend split push and create windows to counter push. Prophet is a good hero that's fine, but he's not first ban material, not like he's being made out to be. I think most of the rage people have against him is how the hero drags out games and is easy to play at 85% efficiency in pub dota.

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His TI3 Stats (I didn't verify the accuracy of the article) but I'm assuming its close. He was the 10th most contested pick, and banned just 39 times. Honestly, I think he's just annoying, so people hate on that.

Prophet won 33/68 games picked, less than 50%, just like his pubdota stats actually.
 
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Weaponsfree_sl

shitlord
342
1
Dandain_sl said:
Getting beaten or abused by splitpush with a np with a shadowblade, is 100% the defending teams fault aka newbness. He abuses the inability of teams to properly defend split push and create windows to counter push. Prophet is a good hero that's fine, but he's not first ban material, not like he's being made out to be. I think most of the rage people have against him is how the hero drags out games and is easy to play at 85% efficiency in pub dota.

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His TI3 Stats (I didn't verify the accuracy of the article) but I'm assuming its close. He was the 10th most contested pick, and banned just 39 times. Honestly, I think he's just annoying, so people hate on that.

Prophet won 33/68 games picked, less than 50%, just like his pubdota stats actually.
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Let me make sure I have this right.

It's the defending team's fault if a character that can teleport anywhere on the map managed to split push and then escape? When you commit 5 people to a push and see NP split pushing dangerously, you have to not only send someone back, but send someone back you know who can kill him and have detection. Rubick can't really go back. It has to be someone with balls and if you want a kill it has to be someone with detection AND have ported back in such a way that NP doesn't see it.

FURTHERMORE

If NP is competent, either a port scroll or his personal TP will be off CD after you send someone back, meaning he can then join the teamfight your team committed to, making it 4v5 because someone from your side had to teleport away and had no way to get back.

This is the team playing against NP's "fault?" No. Pointing at his winrate in TI3 shows a lot of teams have no idea how to use him and some other teams do, just like in pubs.

And let me just head off some dumbass counterarguments right now.

But all t3h lanes should be pushed out before, that way if he tries to counterpush the creep are far away from the base!

Several problems with this. First, pushing out all the lanes individually takes time and getting them to the river doesn't even guarantee safety, it needs to be a little farther. At the point of the game that NP is a risk, losing a character is a real loss, so this push out would need to be done with multiple characters, inefficiently using their time. If solo characters push the lanes out, they stand at serious risk of dying. Let's not forget this pretends the enemy team is doing nothing but dicking around in their jungle. Secondly, if 4-5 people are in lanes, pushing them out, all that means is that NP CAN PUSH ANOTHER LANE CAREFULLY, undoing the work of "let's make sure our lanes are pushed before we teamfight!" It also means you have less of an ability to respond or control the roshan pit when you're worried about your lane at all times, and NP has no qualms about pushing a lane when roshan is up as he can instantly join the fight.

As to increasing the mana on his port, it wouldn't do much. By the time it's level 4 (and 200 mana or whatever) he doesn't give a crap, he probably has a decent item by then. Sure this could cut down on level ~12ish aggression, when he has a shadow blade and is still working on scythe, but as soon as orchid/scythe/whatever comes out, this is a total non-issue. And lots of times, he's porting from the fountain where he'll regen a good 150 of that just off fountain effects as he arrives, not even needing a mana-regeneration item.
 
Sulrn

Sulrn

Deuces
2,159
360
Turn his tree summon into a castable AOE ally creep/pet buff. Removes his ability to jungle (destroying his early snowball) without destroying his role as a pusher / spot assist.
 
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Obtenor_sl

shitlord
483
0
Again make his TP trigger cooldown on stun would solve this. As it is now he can just recontinue casting so it's a race to kill him, not many "supports" can burst that much damage (Lion?)
 
Pyros

Pyros

<Silver Donator>
11,313
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Obtenor_sl said:
Again make his TP trigger cooldown on stun would solve this. As it is now he can just recontinue casting so it's a race to kill him, not many "supports" can burst that much damage (Lion?)
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You're not killing Furion solo as a support unless it's very early game, and even then it's not guaranteed, if he has his ult up he'll fuck you up. If you bring more people, you should have the damage to kill him. He's more likely to escape a solo gank with shadow blade than he is by teleporting, getting interupted, then teleporting again. I mean it would be one nerf but it would do very little in my opinion.
 
Nite1

Nite1

<WoW Guild Officer>
786
65
So any chance some of our resident skilled players could take a look at a couple of my games and offer some advice because i'd like to get better at this game but feel like i'm kind of stuck and I'm hoping a different perspective could help me.

278309827 <-- Anti mage game ( i know probably shouldn't be playing him but i randomed him and it was one of a few games that went late enough that my decision making is evident)

275218753 <-- Earth shaker ( only support game i've played that went longer then 20 minutes...)

I was trying to pick games that went late enough and were balanced enough to see what im doing with out it being a stomp one way or another
 
Byr

Byr

Potato del Grande
3,953
5,638
Lost Ranger_sl said:
Why is Outworld Devourer banned so much? Never actually played him, and I'm a new player still. Extremely OP?
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he can steal intelligence with one of his skills, which gives him more damage, the enemy less damage(most mid heroes are int) and leaves teh enemy hero with no mana to do anything. He dominates the lane hes in just about every time, unless the enemy puts a lot of effort into ganking him.
 
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niss_sl

shitlord
281
1
This is a pretty good summary of why he's broken. Don't look at his winrate and judge from that because many games are lost before NP gets to the broken state. It's very difficult to contest big fights (rax, rosh, teamfights, etc) with NP because he'll force you to back off. And he won't force back just one person but at least 2. You need a gem/dust (because he's a natural shadow blade carrier), an interrupt and someone with enough umph to actually kill him. This is almost never present in 1 hero which means you must back off because you now can't take that big fight with 3 players.

A decent first pass fix without butchering the hero might be to make him unable to carry SB and for his TP go on cd on interupt +/- cost a lot more mana.

Weaponsfree_sl said:
Let me make sure I have this right.

It's the defending team's fault if a character that can teleport anywhere on the map managed to split push and then escape? When you commit 5 people to a push and see NP split pushing dangerously, you have to not only send someone back, but send someone back you know who can kill him and have detection. Rubick can't really go back. It has to be someone with balls and if you want a kill it has to be someone with detection AND have ported back in such a way that NP doesn't see it.

FURTHERMORE

If NP is competent, either a port scroll or his personal TP will be off CD after you send someone back, meaning he can then join the teamfight your team committed to, making it 4v5 because someone from your side had to teleport away and had no way to get back.

This is the team playing against NP's "fault?" No. Pointing at his winrate in TI3 shows a lot of teams have no idea how to use him and some other teams do, just like in pubs.

And let me just head off some dumbass counterarguments right now.

But all t3h lanes should be pushed out before, that way if he tries to counterpush the creep are far away from the base!

Several problems with this. First, pushing out all the lanes individually takes time and getting them to the river doesn't even guarantee safety, it needs to be a little farther. At the point of the game that NP is a risk, losing a character is a real loss, so this push out would need to be done with multiple characters, inefficiently using their time. If solo characters push the lanes out, they stand at serious risk of dying. Let's not forget this pretends the enemy team is doing nothing but dicking around in their jungle. Secondly, if 4-5 people are in lanes, pushing them out, all that means is that NP CAN PUSH ANOTHER LANE CAREFULLY, undoing the work of "let's make sure our lanes are pushed before we teamfight!" It also means you have less of an ability to respond or control the roshan pit when you're worried about your lane at all times, and NP has no qualms about pushing a lane when roshan is up as he can instantly join the fight.

As to increasing the mana on his port, it wouldn't do much. By the time it's level 4 (and 200 mana or whatever) he doesn't give a crap, he probably has a decent item by then. Sure this could cut down on level ~12ish aggression, when he has a shadow blade and is still working on scythe, but as soon as orchid/scythe/whatever comes out, this is a total non-issue. And lots of times, he's porting from the fountain where he'll regen a good 150 of that just off fountain effects as he arrives, not even needing a mana-regeneration item.
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Dandain

Dandain

Trakanon Raider
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Lost Ranger_sl said:
Why is Outworld Devourer banned so much? Never actually played him, and I'm a new player still. Extremely OP?
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He was banned primarily in the later bans of the draft when the opposing team had not committed to a mid and the drafting team wanted a specific int hero. Laning against OD mid is basically a loss for any int hero. So you have to commit your supports and time to rotate and kill OD, so instead of doing that they just banned him.
 
Dandain

Dandain

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So I'm just curious what other heroes people want to nerf disregarding their winrate? What metric do you use to deterimine balance then? I'm still not sure I follow this logic of "At a certain point in the game NP has won the game and you can't do anything about it except fight 3v5 it takes half your team to kill him, he's op". What about a farmed out anti mage? What nerfs does AM need?
 
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Nutron_sl

shitlord
712
0
um no...the nerf they did to pl was excellent to stop his too good late game pushing. Get a sentry and destroy him early game.
 
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Weaponsfree_sl

shitlord
342
1
Dandain_sl said:
So I'm just curious what other heroes people want to nerf disregarding their winrate? What metric do you use to deterimine balance then? I'm still not sure I follow this logic of "At a certain point in the game NP has won the game and you can't do anything about it except fight 3v5 it takes half your team to kill him, he's op". What about a farmed out anti mage? What nerfs does AM need?
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Anti-mage does not require your team to be in all places at all times. Anti-mage can split push but cannot do it with the kind of impunity that means he can join a fight at the other end of the map when someone ports back to stop him. Anti-mage is the equivalent to many late-game carries, and NP is the equivalent of exactly no one. NP requires you behave a very, very specific way and also as the game goes later becomes more powerful for a reason no one has even discussed: Item slots.

See, a carry or a very farmed mid is the only thing that could stop him later. Rubick ain't doing it. So even if he commits and you send someone back, it has to be someone with detection and a port scroll. With no BoT, that requires 2 item slots available on this allegedly farmed person--with BoT, at least 1. That's a huge deal. Well, you might say "but if riki or BH are playing you still need detection!111" but, simply put, they don't require the carry/mid/whoever to carry it. Rubick can. So if Rubick still is, Rubick has to port back WITH Dragon Knight just to stop NP, who can teleport away as soon as he sees you coming back.

There are currently 2 characters that completely force you to change the entire way you play as the game goes on, and the two characters are Wisp and NP. No coincidence that the two characters both have a teleport.
 
Delly

Delly

Trakanon Raider
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I used bold to make this so fancy looking!

I agree with Weaponsfree, but I do also feel that there has to be unique heroes with unique abilities that force you to change the way you play.

NP concerns: My concerns with NP is that he can be everything at once. He is a great pusher, carry, jungler (Lycan anyone?.. who's jungling was nerfed) and ganker. Not only that but he can scout with treants, has a free cheap TP which costs less mana than a TP scroll (wtf?). He can deny creep camps/runes with treants with complete safety. And previously mentioned complaints of his TP doesn't go on cooldown or share a cooldown with TP scrolls. He can solo Rosh if he has a decent farm and uses treants to tank. He can tree in enemies that are BKB'D!!! Albeit extremely hard, it was done during TI3. His downsides are no hard stun and low HP pool, if you can call it low.

Hero similarities: So Lycan shares some similarities with NP and received a nerf. Plus Lycan is melee and he cannot TP anywhere on a short CD. Wisp shares similarities in the TP aspect, but his drawback is he goes back to his original spot and he can't stay there. Plus Wisp cannot carry or push. Tinker can also TP everywhere but requires an expensive item and tons of mana to do so. He can push but not carry though he has high burst.

Winrate: Using Pub winrate is silly at best. All kinds of dumb shit happens in pubs. The TI3 winrate is interesting and I'd like to see the average length of games played that NP is in because if it went late game I would imagine NP is on the winning side.

He has almost the whole package, no other hero can fill all these roles and no other hero can fill all these roles and TP anywhere for 50 mana and a 20 second CD.
 
Zaphid

Zaphid

Trakanon Raider
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Another point why he could use a nerf: he can block creep camps safely from the other side of the map, that is big. The only other hero who can do that is LD, but he commits his only ability to it and if he fucks up, you get a hero kill.
 
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Pinch_sl

shitlord
232
0
It seems more like NP is the most annoying hero, not the most overpowered. Of course, there are certain times where he simply take over the game, but that is the case with many heroes. He is obnoxious, but how can you ignore his poor winrate at TI3? The only player who crushed with NP all tournament was AdmiralBulldog, and that is partly because he is one of the best NP players in the world and partly because he's on the best tan in the world that caters to his play style. Once NP starts taking over games on a regular basis I can take these complaints seriously, but he is obviously not s priority ban, and even when he is picked he losses more often than not. He's just annoying and punishes mistakes very harshly.
 
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Taloo_sl

shitlord
742
2
I would start with his ult to be completely honest. It really is a large factor in his split push and team fight potential. Not only can he move between lanes but he a global auto targeting nuke. It accelerates his farm, does damage comparable to most other spells on the last few jumps, allows him to impact lanes and fights without risk. When is it a bad time for prophet to ult? Fucking never, there are only potentially better times.

Teleport should be channeled rather than animation cast though(triggers cooldown on startup). It's entirely bullshit the kind of mind games NP can play due to the fact his teleport location is visible. Enemy doesn't have vision of part of your team? For the low low price of no mana or cooldown, no gold, and two seconds you can fake an incoming gank by starting a teleport near the enemy forcing them to make snap decision. Bulldog does this a number of times in the finals v navi. Navi tends to give no fucks so I don't recall it making too big of an impact tbh but it's all kinds of bullshit.

Not sure it would make a huge difference but thought of it while typing this. Could maybe space trees wide enough for vision or make them into a half hp wards that has collision without blocking line of sight but both of those options would have a lot of implications. Wards to allow culling blade to cut through, could flag them to prevent attacks or hell make them attackable ala cogs. Just spit balling.
 
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