EQ Classic? Not really.
- Thread starter Flunklesnarkin_sl
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There was a reason why exp penalties existed to begin with. Warriors were garbage until Kunark proc weapons + disc defensive, and even after those I'd still rather have a knight for a tank for all non-raid content. Hybrids and large races were more powerful and paid for it with exp penalties. You can't just remove them entirely without adding something back.
Of course they later buffed the shit out of rogues without removing their exp bonus, wizards had the same penalty as the other magi classes, and rangers. So these penalties were not always well implemented.
Of course they later buffed the shit out of rogues without removing their exp bonus, wizards had the same penalty as the other magi classes, and rangers. So these penalties were not always well implemented.
Big Phoenix
Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
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Im gonna go with a lot of the design choices made back in vanilla EQ were entirely arbitrary or just idiotic in nature(exp bonuses/penalties the biggest).
Xarpolis
Life's a Dream
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You're locked in the book until 35. Then you can just /sit to mediate.
As far as the design choices from EQ, they were made based off of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. I don't know enough about AD&D to say this perfectly, but supposedly hybrid type characters were at a leveling disadvantage there. However, that's compounded in EQ.
Not only are they weaker, due to skills capping at a lower level, but they also required more xp to level. Hybrids are at a severe disadvantage over pure casters or pure melee. Granted, they can do a combination of the two, but they don't do either as well as their counterparts, so it becomes a loss overall. Rangers specifically never had a true focus.
They were part druid, part warrior... except a warrior that could only wear chain. What part of this combination = DPS? In Luclin, they were finally given a niche role as ranged melee DPS, but in classic they were pretty shitty. Their weapon skills and defensive skills were low. They were forced to wear chain... and for some reason they could taunt. It's odd. Kind of like Bards, really. They never did know how to balance a bard out. Thott made long posts about how much Verant screwed the pooch by always un-intentionally fucking bards up.
Even SK's, which are an awesome class, are seriously gimped. They have even less damage output than a ranger, and can't tank close to as well as a warrior (for raid content). They're awesome tanks for groups, however, due to their great snap agro.
They don't really begin to come into their own until after Luclin. And even then they have to wait to become really good.
So in closing, why are the weakest characters also given an experience penalty on top of that?
As far as the design choices from EQ, they were made based off of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. I don't know enough about AD&D to say this perfectly, but supposedly hybrid type characters were at a leveling disadvantage there. However, that's compounded in EQ.
Not only are they weaker, due to skills capping at a lower level, but they also required more xp to level. Hybrids are at a severe disadvantage over pure casters or pure melee. Granted, they can do a combination of the two, but they don't do either as well as their counterparts, so it becomes a loss overall. Rangers specifically never had a true focus.
They were part druid, part warrior... except a warrior that could only wear chain. What part of this combination = DPS? In Luclin, they were finally given a niche role as ranged melee DPS, but in classic they were pretty shitty. Their weapon skills and defensive skills were low. They were forced to wear chain... and for some reason they could taunt. It's odd. Kind of like Bards, really. They never did know how to balance a bard out. Thott made long posts about how much Verant screwed the pooch by always un-intentionally fucking bards up.
Even SK's, which are an awesome class, are seriously gimped. They have even less damage output than a ranger, and can't tank close to as well as a warrior (for raid content). They're awesome tanks for groups, however, due to their great snap agro.
They don't really begin to come into their own until after Luclin. And even then they have to wait to become really good.
So in closing, why are the weakest characters also given an experience penalty on top of that?
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I agree with you but maybe they were thinking about utility. Its just easier to get around as a hybrid rather than a pure class. Invis, levi, snare, root, sow, etc....
Also I think games these days deal with this a lot better than EQ did in the old days. Basically classify everyone in either a Tank, DPS, or Healer role and be done with it. None of this hybrid bullshit. Obviously Rangers would be DPS role and should out damage a warrior. Pallies, SKs would be tanks but just a different flavor, and Warriors should be the best tank, like they are.
Also I think games these days deal with this a lot better than EQ did in the old days. Basically classify everyone in either a Tank, DPS, or Healer role and be done with it. None of this hybrid bullshit. Obviously Rangers would be DPS role and should out damage a warrior. Pallies, SKs would be tanks but just a different flavor, and Warriors should be the best tank, like they are.
Hathe
Silver Knight of the Realm
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Also, speaking from the Ranger role, which I was. I think they should of stuck with the ranged damage as it was in Luclin. But for some reason they reneged and placed us back in the melee role post Luclin. I never understood why they were so dead against having us be a ranged DPS role in groups.
Arden
Blackwing Lair Raider
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We could speculate about the intent behind the original mechanics all day long. Frankly, it doesn't matter. What it comes down to is that many of the core mechanics were tossed/changed over the years and that long series of changes is how we got to what EQ is today. Pretty much anyone interested in this thread would agree that somewhere along the way the bad changes outweighed the good and things went downhill. Lots of people here put that point post-Velious.
Regardless, time and many emu versions of EQ have taught us that the less we stray from the core mechanics of whatever EQ era we are emulating, the better. In building a meticulously crafted Classic era emu server, YL is wise to keep things pretty close to Vanilla.
This said, like I stated previously I would 'personally' argue that there is a small handful of things that just flat out didn't make sense (or were broken) in vanilla EQ that warrant immediate change upon release. Lets to honest, some things VI just didn't know wouldn't work until they were tried. For these things it's silly to pretend we don't know now what we didn't know then and try to ignore them.
Again,'personally', I think the hybrid exp penalty is one of those few things that could stand to be changed, largely for reasons brought up by Xarpolis. Put hybrids in classic up against most of the other classes (Druid, Mage, necro, wiz)- they are outclassed in just about every way. It's not at all that hybrids were so powerful or their utility was so great that they deserved a penalty- it's that pure melees, specifically warriors, were gimped for the first few years in EQ, and hybrid exp penalties were VIs lopsided and lazy way to address this disparity.
Regardless, time and many emu versions of EQ have taught us that the less we stray from the core mechanics of whatever EQ era we are emulating, the better. In building a meticulously crafted Classic era emu server, YL is wise to keep things pretty close to Vanilla.
This said, like I stated previously I would 'personally' argue that there is a small handful of things that just flat out didn't make sense (or were broken) in vanilla EQ that warrant immediate change upon release. Lets to honest, some things VI just didn't know wouldn't work until they were tried. For these things it's silly to pretend we don't know now what we didn't know then and try to ignore them.
Again,'personally', I think the hybrid exp penalty is one of those few things that could stand to be changed, largely for reasons brought up by Xarpolis. Put hybrids in classic up against most of the other classes (Druid, Mage, necro, wiz)- they are outclassed in just about every way. It's not at all that hybrids were so powerful or their utility was so great that they deserved a penalty- it's that pure melees, specifically warriors, were gimped for the first few years in EQ, and hybrid exp penalties were VIs lopsided and lazy way to address this disparity.
Hybrids will always feel like gimps because it is hard to see past how powerful purity is when matching up a segment of the character/mechanic. People still played them and the good ones were pretty dam badass. There is no quantifiable metric for utility, clutch saves, backup healing, invis, rez, thus impossible to balance beyond subjectivity.
Im still hoping for no tweaks to the game... shit, I'll even pray we have chat channels to camp out to once crap buffs are done pre engaging Vox.
Im still hoping for no tweaks to the game... shit, I'll even pray we have chat channels to camp out to once crap buffs are done pre engaging Vox.
Fogel
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Pretty much what Noahx said. I played a Pal from the beginning and while we were not optimal in most situations, there were plenty of times we were able to pull through in one of those "oh shit" moments. Stun taunting, pulling add agro from raping clothies with heals, that last second LOH on the cleric/ench. And of course the time I fell asleep in plane of hate and woke up just in time to rez the raid after they wiped to Inny. Suck on that warriors.
According to YL currently racial xp penalties exist, but not the hybrid ones.
Both race and class bonuses exist (i.e. Halfling, Rogue).
Racial experience penalties and bonuses aren't factored into group splits, so having an Ogre, Troll, etc in your group will never hurt you, and having a Halfling, etc won't help you.
Group experience split is purely based on level distribution of the group.
Both race and class bonuses exist (i.e. Halfling, Rogue).
Racial experience penalties and bonuses aren't factored into group splits, so having an Ogre, Troll, etc in your group will never hurt you, and having a Halfling, etc won't help you.
Group experience split is purely based on level distribution of the group.
The real test will be if boats work... or will they lag out and put you in the OOT, 1/2 drowned and likely with a Swimming (4). You all know you either learned how to swim from boat lag or in that 10ft tunnel in LGUK.
Araxen
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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Isn't this server up to SOV? Why would you have to start at the book if SOV is live? The starting at the book stuff was done away with during vanilla. It didn't last too long even after release. I would say 4 months at the most that stupid mechanic stuck around.
Famm
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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You're wrong. As already posted it was changed to only up to level 35 or something. That was still the case after Velious was live. What I don't remember is when they did away with it completely.
Xarpolis
Life's a Dream
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While we haven't had an opportunity to test them yet, we've been assured that boats are fully functional, including the backwards travel plan them have.
<--- Destination <--- | ----> Ocean ---> | <--- Origin <---
Or from falling into the hole in blackburrow. While Rangers were considered a chain class, all the top end armor looked like plate. Rubicite, Lustrous Russet, Thorny Vine, Tolan's Darkwood. It wasn't till Velious where our end armor remained chain in appearance. Rubicite and Lustrous were wearable by all chain+ wearing classes though, and while Thorny and Tolan's had a plate appearance, the AC was along the lines of chain.
Considering the fact that it took EQC five fucking years to even begin talking about alpha testing, I imagine P99 won't even exist by the time it's finished. The question is whether any of us will be alive by then.
Fogel from Thunderwalkers?
I could do so much more solo pulling with freedom as an SK. I loved it. Despite the xp penalty it was worth playing the class. Way more fun than my mage and very versitile.
I could do so much more solo pulling with freedom as an SK. I loved it. Despite the xp penalty it was worth playing the class. Way more fun than my mage and very versitile.