EQ Never

Dr Neir_sl said:

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Love the ignorance in this. Keep giving your money away to companies rolling out crappy annual garbage. This is the problem with the gaming industry, specifically with mmos, nowadays where you have designers that constantly get rimjobs from the "community" who just seem to be happy about getting attention from someone important (?). No one challenges, no one calls them out. And if someone has the balls to do so, if they don't get banned/blocked/down voted or whatever, they get drowned out by all the other leeches.

I'm an older, non-ADD, generation that enjoyed and still enjoy gaming of all kinds, not just MMOs. I know what I like and I've seen what works and what doesn't work. Once in a while some developer(s) come up with a revolutionary gaming idea that not only ends up being very entertaining, but changes the way people think about, play, and develop future games. This just doesn't seem to be one of those times. Hope I'm wrong, I really do, but this is SOE and they don't exactly have the best track record. I've seen this same song and dance so, so, so many times before and I'm hopeful that I won't get fooled by it anymore.

Sorry rant, I'll get back to lurking once in a while.

etchazz_sl said:

i really don't give a shit about the lore at all.

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Which is strange, since that's the only thing that links the franchise together. All of their MMORPGs have different but similar game systems baked into them, but up until EQN they all shared common lore, or at least lore based on the same roots.

etchazz_sl said:

what i care about is that everything that made EQ great is being thrown out because the people in charge "believe" that none of it was fun and didn't make EQ the awesome game that it was. i'm talking about defined hard classes, DIKU style gameplay, dungeon crawls, contested content, rare spawns, rare tradable loot (twinking is fun), player interdependency, and about a thousand other things that made EQ fun and engaging that they are removing from EQN and instead giving us the GW2/rift/minecraft/disney/call of duty console abortion they are planning.

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You're still not getting it. You want to play Everquest: Classic. You want to play Everquest and the first 3 (or so) expansions, back before EQ became easier and more solo friendly. That game doesn't exist anymore except on SOE's Macintosh server and fan-made emulated servers. If you're not playing EQMac or on Project 1999, you're shit out of luck.

etchazz_sl said:

this has SWTOR written all over it.

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Unless you're talking about the hype that surrounded the development of SWTOR, EQNext and SWTOR have almost nothing in common.
If you are talking about pre-release hype, I'd say that's par for the course these days. New games spend up to 30-40% of their budget getting the hype for their product established long before the game comes out. That gets them pre-order business, lifetime subscriber business, "founder" package business and so on. It's the same with blockbuster movies. I read somewhere that Man of Steel nearly made back it's budget before it hit theaters due to all the cross promotion and product placement in the film. That's pretty incredible, especially when you consider that it wasn't a big hit with older Superman films.

As for your other predictions, I don't think you're in a position to make an educated guess. You've already stated that you never played EQII, EQOA or any of their single-player games. EQOA would still be operating if they hadn't tied it to the PS2. They make money off those games, and they have dedicated fans.

We really don't know much about the gameplay of EQNext, so its level of "hardcore-ness" is unknown. It might be a game for casuals designed as an entry point to the franchise, or it could be a challenging game designed to be easy to learn but hard to master. Nobody knows yet. Until the devs release more information, making predictions about the success or failure of EQNext is pointless.

but does iteverseem to be one of those times?

It doesn't, really. No one can expect when something will pop out of nowhere and wow everybody, but it's damn well about time for something to at least take a shot at being very different. It happened in 1999 with the original EverQuest, it happened in 2004 with WoW, and we're just about overdue for either another hit or another great MMO to surface.

Will it be this game? Maybe, maybe not. The point still stands though that everyone has those "back in my day" moments and everyonewants tothink they're right.

Mellent_sl said:

but does iteverseem to be one of those times?

It doesn't, really. No one can expect when something will pop out of nowhere and wow everybody, but it's damn well about time for something to at least take a shot at being very different. It happened in 1999 with the original EverQuest, it happened in 2004 with WoW, and we're just about overdue for either another hit or another great MMO to surface.

Will it be this game? Maybe, maybe not. The point still stands though that everyone has those "back in my day" moments and everyonewants tothink they're right.

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i agree, except that this game is offering NOTHING that hasn't been done before. everything that they've rolled out so far and praised as being new and different is being done in current MMO's which are not very successful (GW2, rift, warcraft now on the decline, SWTOR, etc...) and they've just thrown in a little minecraft just to be safe, but i haven't read anything about this game which is groundbreaking whatsoever. all i've heard is dev talk about how much better the AI is going to be, but i don't really care how good the AI is when everyone is an exact clone of one another and you just "decide" in group who's going to play which role each time out (their words, not mine).

my point is, you don't have to always reinvent the wheel. no one ever said they wanted EQ EXACTLY redone with new graphics, but they could have stayed true to the core mechanics that made the original EQ great and made a solid game and they had a really great opportunity to make a game that is different than just about everything else that is currently being offered. instead, they just threw every game that's been released in the past 10 years into a blender and called it new and different.

etchazz_sl said:

i agree, except that this game is offering NOTHING that hasn't been done before. everything that they've rolled out so far and praised as being new and different is being done in current MMO's which are not very successful (GW2, rift, warcraft now on the decline, SWTOR, etc...) and they've just thrown in a little minecraft just to be safe, but i haven't read anything about this game which is groundbreaking whatsoever. all i've heard is dev talk about how much better the AI is going to be, but i don't really care how good the AI is when everyone is an exact clone of one another and you just "decide" in group who's going to play which role each time out (their words, not mine).

my point is, you don't have to always reinvent the wheel. no one ever said they wanted EQ EXACTLY redone with new graphics, but they could have stayed true to the core mechanics that made the original EQ great and made a solid game and they had a really great opportunity to make a game that is different than just about everything else that is currently being offered. instead, they just threw every game that's been released in the past 10 years into a blender and called it new and different.

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and what did they get? something new and different. no one has stuck all of those features in a blender before, ergo it is now new and different.

etchazz_sl said:

i could too, if they just created an entirely new IP. the problem is, there is absolutely nothing everquest about everquest next, which is retarded. what sony is doing is like someone making a new wing commander game but making it a RTS and placing it in the old west.

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Flipmode_sl said:

EQN isn't even on the same timeline. The devs said it over and over. It's like an alternate universe. Some things will be familiar and others will have a new spin on it. That's why all you guys getting your panties in a twist over the lore aren't getting it.

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That's pretty much where I stand. There's not enough Everquest in EQN, which right now as far as I'm concerned is purely a lore topic because there is no game/gameplay at this time. I do understand that it's a different timeline. I believe they are diverging too far from their original lore and that is a questionable choice. Saying it over and over doesnt make it a good choice. So basically this:

glumner_sl said:

Nobody is confused that it's an alternate universe. We are saying that that's stupid.

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As it stands, the only tenuous connections are the names of races and places. Not the history of those locations or races though, or their relation to other things. Just the name. I just feel that's not enough and if there are so few things connected to the other games in the franchise, I would really rather explore an entirely new world. To give a comparison to the star wars franchise, you can dislike the prequels or novels and they have a ton of bullshit and retcons but they are believably set in the same universe (afaik - only seen the movies and animated series, no books). Along comes EQN which is a great new movie but aside from using star wars names for planets or races it is very clearly a star trek movie (squeaky clean ships, avoiding drawing the indigenous species of mini-wookies into your conflict at all costs, etc). That's just wrong. They havent put a new spin on the old lore (as usual with alternate dimension crap). They have written entirely new lore and thrown in some name references where it might sorta-kinda barely fit. At the level if disconnect they are pushing I wouldnt be surprised if Lady Vox turns out to be an ice goblin queen instead of a dragon.

That said I like all the gameplay changes they are proposing and I like the visual style (dislike some models but they can work on that). I'm looking forward to more on the game in 2014 as its very obvious right now that they have nothing and it's all smoke and mirrors to buy time until Landmark, which will buy time for the actual EQN. My main concern aside from the lore changes is that they'll "nerf it to casual" like Rift and WoW and their now-grand and ambitous plans are replaced by mass-market mediocrity bit by bit.

zzeris_sl said:

I don't understand some of the arguments. I've heard that this isn't new but has parts of other games in it. Some of the things are extremely new. No other MMO has voxel technology or the AI of Storybricks. That's two new hooks whereas most new games only really have one. Throw in the upgraded PQs called RCs and the effort to never have reusable 'bosses' and this game is extremely far beyond the average MMO in theory. How many other MOBA MMOs are there out there? This is NEW especially as being set up.

At the same time, you want to keep the old from 15 years ago because that's what will make a true EQ game. You can't want something brand new while keeping everything from the old EQ. That just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.This game will still have the same races, the same cities, some of the same spells, and the same landmasses. It isn't supposed to be a carbon copy. What differences are you guys wanting? Let's be honest for once. You want all the old stuff with none of the bugs and the graphics updated some. Isn't that really the truth? Tell me what you really want that's new by chance?

I also don't understand the disdain for SOE and the "they'll fuck it up and make it too easy for timmy' "argument. Where exactly is this paragon of MMO excellence that you guys keep talking about? What company hasn't had their share of fuckups? Which hardcore game are you guys comparing this to by chance? The disdain should be for the entire system not just SOE. SOE has made the only game some of you guys have ever seemed to like. Sure, they changed some things. It's called moving forward when the player base leaves. If the game was so damn good, WoW wouldn't have stomped the shit out of it and it's successor. That's just the cold stone truth.

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I'm really not a classic EQ fanatic I really have no problem with them changing game play and class system to a more modern variety. Things that worry me is trashing EQ lore for no real reason. Trying to eliminate generic Exp based on market research that says the casuals want that but then end up replacing Exp grind with something far worse for casuals instead. I also worry EQN is to focused on non mmog players trying to chase new players at expense of taking existing mmog players for granted. Taking feedback from people that don't like video games in general and are only telling you the parts they don't like the most with there feedback when they have no intention of playing EQN regardless of any actions they suggest being taken or not. And yes also SoE's never ending ability to simply take something and screw it up.

Everyone knows Everquest had terrible derivative lore, right?

They ditched it because it sucked. That's the reason.

Siddar_sl said:

Things that worry me is trashing EQ lore for no real reason. Trying to eliminate generic Exp based on market research that says the casuals want that but then end up replacing Exp grind with something far worse for casuals instead.

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On the topic of the lore, what I've heard of the lore is that it's incredibly convoluted. If they tried to make the lore more appealing to a wider audience but kept the old lore, they'd end up pissing off the EQ vets more than they did with the lore reboot. The old lore will live on and will continue coexisting with the EQN lore, but if they had just twisted around the old lore instead they would have had an abomination on their hands, not a reboot. As far as the exp argument goes, it's notjustexp they eliminated - it's vertical progression in the terms of sheer power. After that, the progression is really left to adaptability (from increased variety of skills, as they've said) and player skill. They've given no indication that it will be casual, either. In fact, it's the antithesis of casual. It boggles my mind that people think a system based almost solely upon both individual player skill and group skill is "casual." (Edit: Meaning that although there will be content which players with less skill can handle, all they will literally have to do when they streamline their creation process is crank up a knob on difficulty to create difficult content). Granted, they haven't yet been able to provide any evidence that it will actually require individual and group skill but so long as we're talking theoretically, that's how it's going to roll.

Siddar_sl said:

Trying to eliminate generic Exp based on market research that says the casuals want that but then end up replacing Exp grind with something far worse for casuals instead.

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Why exactly is it worse? I'm far from casual and I personally love the idea of no experience grind.

I know there's somewhat of a grind in Guild Wars 2, but I don't even think about levels, really. I just run around exploring and having fun, and progressing is just an extra benefit. If that's the kind of experience they want to foster, then I'm all for it.

I do think there's a lot of potential to fuck it up (it is SoE afterall), but in theory I like the idea.

Mellent_sl said:

On the topic of the lore, what I've heard of the lore is that it's incredibly convoluted.

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It can't be any more convoluted than the original's lore after a dozen expansions. Shit got ridiculous. We killed gods...where do you go from there without jumping the shark?

I like some of the changes they made, but I think they departed a bit too much. They could have kept more aspects from the original even with their new direction.

Teekey_sl said:

Why exactly is it worse? I'm far from casual and I personally love the idea of no experience grind.

I know there's somewhat of a grind in Guild Wars 2, but I don't even think about levels, really. I just run around exploring and having fun, and progressing is just an extra benefit. If that's the kind of experience they want to foster, then I'm all for it.

I do think there's a lot of potential to fuck it up (it is SoE afterall), but in theory I like the idea.

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That's exactly what I did in GW2, and it was the best levelling experience I have had in years (even if it was way too fast)

Quaid_sl said:

That's exactly what I did in GW2, and it was the best levelling experience I have had in years (even if it was way too fast)

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Could be even better too, if it's as 'non-hand holding' as they've claimed. Imagine not having map icons telling you were skill ups, quest areas, or anything else is. I don't know if SoE has the balls to make it that unguided, but I love the idea of actually having to discover things. Add in procedural generation of the underworld with StoryBricks driving content, and it could become a great experience that lasts a long time.

Teekey_sl said:

Could be even better too, if it's as 'non-hand holding' as they've claimed. Imagine not having map icons telling you were skill ups, quest areas, or anything else is. I don't know if SoE has the balls to make it that unguided, but I love the idea of actually having to discover things. Add in procedural generation of the underworld with StoryBricks driving content, and it could become a great experience that lasts a long time.

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I think the general idea, which also branches off of SOEmote (and why it's more useful than people think), is that people and things which seem "out of the ordinary" are generally going to be the questgivers. I think the example they've given so far is interacting with a crying girl who'll have you go on a revenge plot or something.

Edit: In a way, it's not much different from EQ1 except that it will be a more natural way of giving out quests EQ1 style. Instead of inquiring with literally everyone to obtain a single quest, people who may or may not be of interest will be highlighted by methods other than a giant exclamation mark.

Teekey_sl said:

Why exactly is it worse? I'm far from casual and I personally love the idea of no experience grind.

I know there's somewhat of a grind in Guild Wars 2, but I don't even think about levels, really. I just run around exploring and having fun, and progressing is just an extra benefit. If that's the kind of experience they want to foster, then I'm all for it.

I do think there's a lot of potential to fuck it up (it is SoE afterall), but in theory I like the idea.



It can't be any more convoluted than the original's lore after a dozen expansions. Shit got ridiculous. We killed gods...where do you go from there without jumping the shark?

I like some of the changes they made, but I think they departed a bit too much. They could have kept more aspects from the original even with their new direction.

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Because what you don't like is the grind part not the exp part. What they will do is get rid of the exp and shift the grind part to simply being non exp based. You will still have to grind its just you will be very restricted in choices because you will only advance by doing the one or two thing that moves your character forward instead of a exp based system that allows you to advance by gaining generic game exp from many different sources.

Siddar_sl said:

Because what you don't like is the grind part not the exp part. What they will do is get rid of the exp and shift the grind part to simply being non exp based. You will still have to grind its just you will be very restricted in choices because you will only advance by doing the one or two thing that moves your character forward instead of a exp based system that allows you to advance by gaining generic game exp from many different sources.

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Sorry man but that sounds kinda good to me...

Maybe the skill 'Tracking' is unlocked by exploring a certain area of the map... While 'Assassination' is obtained by performing 10,000 backstabs. Maybe a teleport Ability is found by interacting with a crystal deep in a dungeon, while a 'Haste' spell must be researched.

Sounds a lot more appealing than 'kill any combination of 8000 MOBs to unlock the next level and receive these 5 spells.... Oh, you can also substitute any portin of those MOB kills with quests'.

.....yaaaaaay.

Mellent_sl said:

On the topic of the lore, what I've heard of the lore is that it's incredibly convoluted. If they tried to make the lore more appealing to a wider audience but kept the old lore, they'd end up pissing off the EQ vets more than they did with the lore reboot. The old lore will live on and will continue coexisting with the EQN lore, but if they had just twisted around the old lore instead they would have had an abomination on their hands, not a reboot. As far as the exp argument goes, it's notjustexp they eliminated - it's vertical progression in the terms of sheer power. After that, the progression is really left to adaptability (from increased variety of skills, as they've said) and player skill. They've given no indication that it will be casual, either. In fact, it's the antithesis of casual. It boggles my mind that people think a system based almost solely upon both individual player skill and group skill is "casual." (Edit: Meaning that although there will be content which players with less skill can handle, all they will literally have to do when they streamline their creation process is crank up a knob on difficulty to create difficult content). Granted, they haven't yet been able to provide any evidence that it will actually require individual and group skill but so long as we're talking theoretically, that's how it's going to roll.

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Lore really doesn't matter to anyone new to a game it only matter to people that have been exposed to it for awhile. Lore is something that grows on someone after playing game are reading it not something that draws them to a game. Most existing players don't care ether lore is only a few steps above RP in social standing of mmog players. On the otherhand those people that care about subject do infact care. SoE by trashing EQ lore for EQN turned tens of thousands of EQ lore nerds from potential supporters into critics. From a marketing perspective the way they have done lore for EQN must be considered a failure.

Now the question is if the changes to EQ lore for EQN were worth the costs. Will this new Elf vs Dragon centric EQN lore attract more players then the Gods vs Klingons lore that was central to past EQ lore. The new EQN seems to play towards a Middle Earth style lore while Old EQ lore played towards the Greek, Roman, Norse God centric myths. Personally I think old EQ Players versus the Gods works better in a raid centered mmog then the Middle Earth centered world.

In end I doubt changing EQ lore in EQN will impact more then 10% of players choice to play EQN are not. I also doubt the changes to EQN lore will produce lore any better or less convoluted then existing EQ lore.

Quaid_sl said:

Sorry man but that sounds kinda good to me...

Maybe the skill 'Tracking' is unlocked by exploring a certain area of the map... While 'Assassination' is obtained by performing 10,000 backstabs. Maybe a teleport Ability is found by interacting with a crystal deep in a dungeon, while a 'Haste' spell must be researched.

Sounds a lot more appealing than 'kill any combination of 8000 MOBs to unlock the next level and receive these 5 spells.... Oh, you can also substitute any portin of those MOB kills with quests'.

.....yaaaaaay.

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Yes but when the casuals said they wanted to get rid of exp grind they meant they wanted all those abilities at character creation not that they wanted do 10k backstabs in order to unlock them. In fact that is exactly the opposite of what they wanted.

Quaid_sl said:

Sorry man but that sounds kinda good to me...

Maybe the skill 'Tracking' is unlocked by exploring a certain area of the map... While 'Assassination' is obtained by performing 10,000 backstabs. Maybe a teleport Ability is found by interacting with a crystal deep in a dungeon, while a 'Haste' spell must be researched.

Sounds a lot more appealing than 'kill any combination of 8000 MOBs to unlock the next level and receive these 5 spells.... Oh, you can also substitute any portin of those MOB kills with quests'.

.....yaaaaaay.

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They seem to be leaning towards some kind of achievement based progression aren't they? Something was...but I glance at so many MMOs I lose track of which is which.

I doubt it would be 10k backstabs. More likely it would be: do this quest for the assassin's guild or kill this master assassin and unlock the ability.

Siddar_sl said:

Yes but when the casuals said they wanted to get rid of exp grind they meant they wanted all those abilities at character creation not that they wanted do 10k backstabs in order to unlock them. In fact that is exactly the opposite of what they wanted.

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I have been a casual MMORPG player since about 2006... And I can honestly say... Fuck casuals.