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Quaid

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,795
8,159
"the artist"? You guys had INDIVIDUALS working on zones solo? Why? What advantage could having single employees working on zones simultaneously & separately have over teams of specialized individuals cranking out zones?

Seems super counter-intuitive from a quality control and efficiency standpoint.
 
Quaid

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,795
8,159
Lenas_sl said:
You realize we're talking about SOE right
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Yeah but like... That Freeport revamp happened in 2006, after 7 years of EQ being operational. EQ still had 200k subs at this point... fuck me EQ2 had just launched. These were the good times! Millions a month in revenue...

And one dude created Freeport? Wtf.
 
Rezz

Rezz

Mr. Poopybutthole
4,486
3,531
Eh, I think the 200k number was from 2005. They lost players pretty quickly after WoW's release in Nov. 2004. Also, EQ2 had also come out in 2004. They were definitely still making money, but I wouldn't guess they had millions extra to spend on art assets etc.

But yeah, one guy doing the zone certainly shows. Especially when someone else didn't go "Hey this looks like ass. No deal." during the development.
 
Quaid

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,795
8,159
Rezz_sl said:
Eh, I think the 200k number was from 2005. They lost players pretty quickly after WoW's release in Nov. 2004. Also, EQ2 had also come out in 2004. They were definitely still making money, but I wouldn't guess they had millions extra to spend on art assets etc.

But yeah, one guy doing the zone certainly shows. Especially when someone else didn't go "Hey this looks like ass. No deal." during the development.
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This was my source. Not sure of accuracy.

rrr_img_130105.png
 
Rezz

Rezz

Mr. Poopybutthole
4,486
3,531
Hrm, look like it sort of stabalized it's descent then. I was referencing this deal from Mmorpgchart.com "

EverQuest (Accuracy Rating: B)

Launched on March 16, 1999, EQ's figures pretty much speak for themselves. At one point their growth seemed nearly unstoppable, but the trend began to slow between 2001 and 2003, and after peaking at about 460,000 subscribers, EQ went into decline. SOE's last official statement regarding EQ's subscribers in 2004 only claimed "over 420,000". The latter data points on the graph come not from press releases, but from inside sources, and they show a somewhat different picture, with a high of some 550,000 subscribers in September 2004. It is important to note that the more recent data points represent not just total monthly subscribers, but also subscribers with active accounts on free time, eligible accounts on game time cards, etc. SOE station pass subscriptions are not counted unless they actually have registered an EQ account. It is possible that the earlier figures from the SOE press releases were deliberately conservative, and/or did not count such accounts, thus accounting for this apparent discrepancy. As of May 2005, EQ had fallen sharply to only 200,000 current subscribers."

Either way, 3m-ish revenue each month, I would agree that having one guy doing an entire zone is dumb. And it shows!
 
Ukerric

Ukerric

Bearded Ape
<Silver Donator>
8,357
10,373
Quaid_sl said:
"the artist"? You guys had INDIVIDUALS working on zones solo? Why?
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Because that works? The big problem if you have multiple persons working on the same zone at the same time is that you have to spend quite a lot of time stitching the entire zone back together. Every time you rework a bit of the zone (and it usually happens a few times), you have to spend a lot of time redoing the stitching.

If, on the other hand, you have one person doing the zone, then it takes longer to make the zone, but you use less man-hours. Modern tools probably make that easier, but in the early 2000s, that worked well for a number of teams using 3DS or Maya. That's how we did it with Ryzom. You had a separate group doing props and yet another doing spawns, but the base zone mesh was one zone per person.

(it would be different for a seamless game like AC1, but AC1 had heightmap-based zones, so stitching was not only absolutely trivial, but the base zone itself was extremely fast)
 
Chillz

Chillz

Bronze Knight of the Realm
133
3
Someone mod the original Everquest in VR. Skills on Gamepad (like Diablo3). Add Voice Chat. Wouldn't that be dope? I would play that.
 
E

Elidroth_sl

shitlord
350
0
Ukerric_sl said:
Because that works? The big problem if you have multiple persons working on the same zone at the same time is that you have to spend quite a lot of time stitching the entire zone back together. Every time you rework a bit of the zone (and it usually happens a few times), you have to spend a lot of time redoing the stitching.

If, on the other hand, you have one person doing the zone, then it takes longer to make the zone, but you use less man-hours. Modern tools probably make that easier, but in the early 2000s, that worked well for a number of teams using 3DS or Maya. That's how we did it with Ryzom. You had a separate group doing props and yet another doing spawns, but the base zone mesh was one zone per person.

(it would be different for a seamless game like AC1, but AC1 had heightmap-based zones, so stitching was not only absolutely trivial, but the base zone itself was extremely fast)
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Pretty much this..
 
A

Arcaus_sl

shitlord
1,290
3
Daybreak posted today they are hiring for a AAA Action game. Are they reviving EQ3 from the ground up? Is it DCUO2? The ad asked for both PC and console experience.
 
Bruman

Bruman

Golden Squire
1,154
0
Ukerric_sl said:
Because that works? The big problem if you have multiple persons working on the same zone at the same time is that you have to spend quite a lot of time stitching the entire zone back together. Every time you rework a bit of the zone (and it usually happens a few times), you have to spend a lot of time redoing the stitching.

If, on the other hand, you have one person doing the zone, then it takes longer to make the zone, but you use less man-hours. Modern tools probably make that easier, but in the early 2000s, that worked well for a number of teams using 3DS or Maya. That's how we did it with Ryzom. You had a separate group doing props and yet another doing spawns, but the base zone mesh was one zone per person.

(it would be different for a seamless game like AC1, but AC1 had heightmap-based zones, so stitching was not only absolutely trivial, but the base zone itself was extremely fast)
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There's no reason to not do periodic reviews to see progress as a team, or design with a small group of people, even if you have one person do the actual implementation.
 
Fight

Fight

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,645
5,565
Famously, it was always said how most of the best designed zones in the game were done by one creator. Sebilis is the one I remember. It was said that some prodigy kid, known for his FPS designs did it. Zone design is basically art. Brilliance and clarity of vision can more often than not come from an individual.

Also, Elidroth said they did review it, critique it... but the artist was very protective of his work. It would have been a bosses job to ditch the thing. Ultimately, they made a business decision to keep it which probably made sense financially, kept his valued team member happy, and likely met a deadline that was important to keeping the game moving forward.

The problem with Freeport, was that it already existed in everyone's mind. The revamp drastically changed that. It was unrecognizable. It was not a cookie cutter Las Vegas casino due to be blown up and rebuilt with more modern designs. It was the Parthenon that should have been preserved and it if ever had to be rebuilt, meticulous detail should have been taken to rebuild it inch by inch, same as the original.
 
T

Treesong

Bronze Knight of the Realm
362
29
Fight_sl said:
The problem with Freeport, was that it already existed in everyone's mind. The revamp drastically changed that. It was unrecognizable. It was not a cookie cutter Las Vegas casino due to be blown up and rebuilt with more modern designs. It was the Parthenon that should have been preserved and it if ever had to be rebuilt, meticulous detail should have been taken to rebuild it inch by inch, same as the original.
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That's what I was thinking. I hated the revamp because I knew the old zone so well, easy to navigate, lots of nostalgia, knowing where every NPC was and such.

For a completely new person to EQ the new Freeport might still be a bitch to navigate but he might find the actual layout, gritty style and all the corridors, nooks and crannies kinda cool. But us veterans are used to ~the old and more colorful layouts. Huge nostalgia. I visited Felwithe the other day and looking at its entrance from Greater Faydark it looks like a big dollhouse.
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They better not touch it!
 
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