The problem with traditional Holy trinity is mob-ai is dumb as shit. As Mughal pointed out, its basically non-existent. And an aggro-mechanic is also a band-aid. The problem with GW2 combat is it just wasn't fun or interesting in a group setting. IDK what the answer is, and I'm not expecting EQN to really solve it.
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Muligan
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I was afraid of this... this is Rift and GW2 all over again. They go in allowing you to be all things to all people which in turns means that encounters will be designed for that system. To me this takes the difficulty way down because you do not have a pure healer, pure tank, pure anything. You have hybrids to the nth degree. In Rift you had "freedom" but guilds and raid progression forced you into certain builds. GW2 took it to the next level. EQNext is going to be just as bad. There is really one word that will describe every player and every encounter.. generic.
Hopefully "pure" builds will be more successful but I doubt it. Remember back to EQ1, no one could heal like a cleric and all other healers had to rely on other abilities and spot healed on raids. I guess they want to get away from people not being useful. However, expanding the grey area doesn't fix it. Someone with 5 levels into healing shouldn't suffice or be able to sustain a group like someone who is specialized in healing. To me, that's what I heard. If I left the group, a pure healer, no big deal, the guy next to you who went a little ways into healing can make it work.
Hopefully "pure" builds will be more successful but I doubt it. Remember back to EQ1, no one could heal like a cleric and all other healers had to rely on other abilities and spot healed on raids. I guess they want to get away from people not being useful. However, expanding the grey area doesn't fix it. Someone with 5 levels into healing shouldn't suffice or be able to sustain a group like someone who is specialized in healing. To me, that's what I heard. If I left the group, a pure healer, no big deal, the guy next to you who went a little ways into healing can make it work.
Teekey
Mr. Poopybutthole
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The thing is, while there are Tanks/Bruisers, Support/Healers, and Caster/Meele DPS in League of Legends, those roles work and are interesting because you're playing against other PEOPLE who don't have to sit there and beat the tank. An AP Carry has to consider positioning for each fight, and if they get attacked need the tank to help them, or they need to help themselves, etc.
Can the AI really provide that kind of interesting and dynamic combat experience?
I'm not too sure that I like where this is headed unfortunately. We are going to need some major clarification on some of these systems.
The Holy trinity works because it forces cooperation which from my reading is what everyone wants so badly. They need to maintain that fun cooperation and progression without holy trinity or its gonna suck ballsac. I agree as well GW2 was just a mashfest, public events were so stupid, Everyone just attacked like crazy, no working together other then to drop a life bar.
Lithose
Buzzfeed Editor
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Trinity and good combat are exclusive?
Tell me something. Why didn't barbarians go and murder the archers, tacticians (Generals), supply and support (Medics ect--so the abstraction of healers) of the Romans? Well, because they had alegion of armored men(Tank abstract)in front of them. Support has ALWAYS been held at the rear. "Healers" are an abstraction of supporting fighting men with supplies and medical care. Just like fights in MMO's are abstractions of battles.
On a smaller scale, in an individual party, the monster doesn't go after the wizard in the back because the burly guy in front of him willflankhim and shove a sword in hisasshole. Brushing past a "front line", whether fighting a small group or a large group of people (Example above) isn't done because of how flanking works, which is why you put more lightly armored support in the back.
If you CAN brush pass the front line, it's often devastating in the real world. Which is why tactics are done to ensure you're fighting soldiers capable of dealing with you and not doctors, supply clerks and various other support mechanisms.
Yup.
Capitalizing on the masses who want an easier experience (soloing, it is up to YOU!). It is basically them saying there will be little to no interdependency, and I think based on that focus on gameplay, it is also fairly safe to say that death mechanics will not require help either. It is made to capitalize on the largest portion of various markets, also most likely favoring a combat system that can easily be adapted to consoles (if that is not a priority from the get go too).
If this holds true, EQ:N will not be a WoW clone, but a trend clone. The ultimate capitalizer. Microsoft is one of the companies "trying to make money" and not necessarily the best products, this earned them the M$ abbreviation. And it worked well for them as a company. This is SOE trying to become $OE.
EDIT: That does not mean EQ:N will not be a good product. Just means that EQ:N has the name, some lore, some POIs and wizard spires in common with EQ. It stops there. EQ is no longer popular, so mechanics that made it special (as in, no longer used by popular MMOs or downtrending (like the holy trinity)) will not feature in EQ:N.
Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I think getting rid of the trinity is a good idea. It's not realistic. Just give players the tools to fight and give the AI enough rudimentary ai so that they make some basic target decisions that make sense. And make the content hard enough that the players can't just faceroll it. The players will come up with a replacement for the trinity on their own.
With the new voxel tech. It already creates a whole new dynamic.
Agraza
Registered Hutt
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Really even the developers don't know the fine details on this stuff unless it's releasing imminently, which it's not. This game is a long way off. Clarification is just not going to be very reliable.
Lleauaric
Sparkletot Monger
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This^^
What is core is a system where people depend on others and groups work together cohesively.
Also.. There is a HUGE difference between no trinity and what gw2 had which was everyone soloing in a group.
iannis
Musty Nester
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I'll give them this. Where before I was all like "EQ:N? omglol hot pockets" now I'm more all like "EQ: The Mush? Hmm. Interesting"
Edit: entirely possible all of these ideas are going to be poorly executed and suck. Probable even, considering.
But they will at least suck in Brave New Ways.
Edit: entirely possible all of these ideas are going to be poorly executed and suck. Probable even, considering.
But they will at least suck in Brave New Ways.
The thing is that most of these systems aren't even fully developed yet. You could see from the videos they posted that some stuff like AI is basically non-existent right now. Those videos were VERY scripted. Any real information about the inner workings of this game is not going to come out of SOE Live. Not this year anyway.
Rift nerfing the shit out of hybrid builds and requiring pure-builds is what effectively killed anything interesting in their class system, IMO.
im picturing playing a rogue predominantly, but pursuing the paladin route just to unlock "Lay Hands" as an ability.
Muligan
Trakanon Raider
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I really believe EQ1 was close to having it figured out. You needed a healer but healers ultimately need slowers or cc'ers. Who all needed tanks. Your mana pool needed DPS. In a sense, you be completely efficient in groups and in raids, you needed the pieces of the puzzle. They came in different packages and I know we've all been in a ton of different group make-ups but I don't see why they can't just make it to where groups of classes possess a piece of that successful equation. You categorize classes into Tanks, DPS, CC/SLOW, Heals and then allow them to choose which category they choose. Then everyone has the freedom to build their class and everyone is part of the equation.
Teekey
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Well this is as simple as tuning mobs difficult enough to require more than 1 person, or require skills that not everyone can have.
Perhaps a Defender Shield Block ability greatly reduces the damage from a special attack that someone has to get hit by, and Druid Soothe spell gets rid of their enrage, etc. You can use a Shield and a Druid Staff at the same time, so you need friends.
Just a thought.