EQ Never

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Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,385
277
You wouldn't credit warcraft with making the noble orc and how he looks a thing? Because that mongolian ogre does look an awful lot like a wow orc.
Usually whenever you want to credit Warcraft or Starcraft with something original, you have to first double-check Warhammer and WH40K because it's likely that they are the actual sources. That being said, Blizzard probably picked the "noble savages" orcs idea from someplace else because in Warhammer the ork description ends at 'savage'.
 

Gravel

Mr. Poopybutthole
39,391
129,542
I can't believe this was glossed over, but there's like 20 pages bitching about Ogre models.

All the POIs change as well with an earthquake, so yes you'd have to dig down and discover what new crap is down there. So I guess I'm not getting the issue.
How do you not see this as an issue? So your group spends a few hours working their way down to T5 for the first time but wipe. No problem, we'll just head back down...oh shit. Earthquake! Fuck, now all our progress is wiped out and we have to start from scratch.

Not only do we have to clear all the way to where we were, but we have to dig fucking holes until we can find anentranceto a similar dungeon.

I hope the system doesn't work like they've described it, because that sounds frustrating as hell.

Heck, another scenario: You've just spent hours dungeon crawling and one of your group members leave. No big deal, because in EQN it's simple to find a friend who has the same class. Except there was an earthquake while you were in the dungeon (does that wipe your dungeon? I have no idea), so now no one can get to you. You've got to disband your group because there's no possible way to bring someone to where you're at.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,385
277
I don't see how strict Class/Race limits could work for what they're really going for. I mean, what if a class that's restricted for your race has A LOT of requirements? For example, say to get the Paladin class requires to get max tier Warrior and Cleric. Let's say that takes a lot of work, but you REALLY want to be a Paladin. But you're a Dark Elf. So you can't ever be one.

So now you have to make a new character and get max tier with Cleric and Warrior (again) just to unlock Paladin. I don't know, I don't think that really goes with their design very well.

It seems like it would be better to make the Dark Elf work really hard to have the Knights of Truth allow him to be a Paladin, compared to the effort it would take for a High Elf. However the High Elf would have the same struggle if he wanted to become a Shadow Knight. You want to talk about making character class identity matter? I think this is how.
I guess I would be ok with that, although I'm worried that what counts as "effort" these days equates to 5 dailies. I'm ok with a dark elf being tolerated in "good" cities if he puts in some work for each of them. But for a dark elf to actually become a knight of truth paladin it should be on the level of getting tormax faction back from max kos and after that reparing your skyshrine faction.

If they dont chicken out and make it too easy that actually allows people to stand out with their unusual characters. You dont get that with an all/all system because anyone can make the exiled dark elf ranger (not that anyone would want to).

There's also the thing that current lore info suggests that all players start out equal, and without very different starting conditions I doubt there is much of a difference for a dark elf unlocking paladin compared to the human.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,767
617
There are alternatives to tanks and mob ping pong. How would you solve it?
Besides Trinity setup? Because it's hard to brainstorm for a class/combat system I might not enjoy.

I would add abilities of course. I think that Ice Wall i saw would obviously help. If there was collision with players that could lead to some abilities. Say tank wall with a knock back.. Where the mob can't run thru the players. I think a trip/pull the mob back in front of you ability would be cool. So basically, you would have to design a class with tank/cc abilities. I think CC is going to be pretty big in this game so I'm expecting a lot of those types of abilities. Also looks like you can trap mobs in holes that you dug and possibly use the world for collision if they have it to slow mobs up.
 

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,903
6,889
Long post, sorry. etc
Excellent post and also a perfect explanation of why EQ favored grouping over individuals (as in WoW etc). Raiding in EQ was as much about managing very large groups of people as it was about knowing your class, if not more so. WoW and its successors are all about getting together a medium to small size group of individuals who can all do the exact same dance moves in time. In WoW you can cut and paste almost anyone into your raid as long as they can memorize the moves. Friends need not apply to your guild in WoW, only the autistic.

EQ had two different types of difficulty, none of which is used today in modern mmos. The first was dealing with the world and the harsh consequences for not being aware of your surroundings. There are no harsh consequences in modern mmos. The second type of difficulty in EQ came from managing an Army. Not everyone is cut out to do that but if you were part of one it was a lot of fun. Modern mmo's gave up the army concept for glorified grouping.

EQ's raids did not hang as much on individual accomplishment. And getting to the target was just as often more challenging than the end boss itself. In WoW it's all about one person failing fucking it for everyone else. And the path to that WoW DDR boss is a snooze fest. EQ was about the journey, WoW and it's clones are about.... nothing fun actually.


Actual single player combat, for many classes, was not that difficult in EQ. But it was done in game where outside factors were just as important. WoW and it's clones are all about individual combat, which also isn't difficult, and the world at large doesn't matter.
 

Underjoyed_sl

shitlord
66
2
I can't believe this was glossed over, but there's like 20 pages bitching about Ogre models.



How do you not see this as an issue? So your group spends a few hours working their way down to T5 for the first time but wipe. No problem, we'll just head back down...oh shit. Earthquake! Fuck, now all our progress is wiped out and we have to start from scratch.

Not only do we have to clear all the way to where we were, but we have to dig fucking holes until we can find anentranceto a similar dungeon.

I hope the system doesn't work like they've described it, because that sounds frustrating as hell.

Heck, another scenario: You've just spent hours dungeon crawling and one of your group members leave. No big deal, because in EQN it's simple to find a friend who has the same class. Except there was an earthquake while you were in the dungeon (does that wipe your dungeon? I have no idea), so now no one can get to you. You've got to disband your group because there's no possible way to bring someone to where you're at.
what happens if you're in Dragon Necropolis and your raid wipes deep in while another group is on your tail. Now you have to run back, summon corpses and get leapfrogged. What happens if you wiped in Veeshan's Peak and can't recover your corpse? What happens if you wipe in Fear at 3am in the morning and you cant get help recovering your raid? This type of whining is why games suck now
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,036
Lithose, do you work in the industry, and if not.. why not?
I actually always wanted to. I used to design modules and house rules for RP games at the hobby shop around my house, I even started selling kits for a few rule sets (Not for a profit, just to cover costs of printing ect, after some word of mouth made it so I was getting requests)...It was fun, and I really wanted to do that kind of design in an online RPG setting but the more I read about the industry, the less likely I found that I'd ever be able to break into it--it feels like a very "fall into it" kind of industry, if that makes sense. So I gave up the ghost, went after a degree with a clearer track to a career, and now post here to live out the fantasy vicariously. I'm sure there are at least a dozen in the same boat, in this very thread (But yeah, I wish the path to being a game designer was more solidified when I was in school. I'd have gone for it.)
 

bixxby

Molten Core Raider
2,750
47
Returning to your corpse is a bit different than the entire piece of content disappearing, besides the DN example of losing the raid mob. The server discovering a dungeon underground and keeping a mine/entrance to it running sounds cool as hell, but having to randomly find content by digging holes while getting a group together sounds just about bite your ear retarded.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,767
617
I actually always wanted to. I used to design modules and house rules for RP games at the hobby shop around my house, I even started selling kits for a few rule sets (Not for a profit, just to cover costs of printing ect)...It was fun, and I really wanted to do that design in an online RPG setting but the more I read about the industry, the less likely I found that I'd ever be able to break into it--it feels like a very "fall into it" kind of industry, if that makes sense. So I gave up the ghost after a while and now post here to live out the fantasy vicariously. I'm sure there are at least a dozen in the same boat, in this very thread, heh.
I think what's cool about this place is a lot of people have strengths/weakness or should I say varying opinions!? in regards to games and their designs so some interesting ideas are always popping up. I always say that I'm totally guilty of spouting out ideas with no regard of how hard they would be to implement lol.
 

Lleauaric

Sparkletot Monger
4,058
1,822
Long post, sorry.

.
Great, Great points.

Now, can that model be expanded is the big question. In Planetside 2 you have 2 types of outfits.. the big, big zerg outfits that can roll armor and swarm a base with 2+ platoons. But then you have the small, elite outfits... on my server, Das Anfall (http://www.planetside-universe.com/o...tats=DasAnfall), with a few incredibly good players who work incredibly well together.

As a TR, playing against the Vanu hordes, we can win if Vanu have greater (10%-15%) numbers, but we almost always lose if DA is operating, even if we have a slight numbers advantage.

There has to be a way to create synergy between the two types, and reward efficiency for both, or maybe even have either rely on the other... Could this be a role for Rallying Crys?
 

Gravel

Mr. Poopybutthole
39,391
129,542
And getting to the target was many times more challenging then the end boss itself.
I think this is the point that people are forgetting about raiding in EQ. Travel was a fucking bitch. If you're on a different continent and can't find a port, you're talking about it taking HOURS to get to the raid. Even if you do get a port, you may die and then you're looking at corpse recovery. Or if not, unless you had JBoots, you were either begging for a SoW, or walking your slow ass to the raid.

I ran several Vox/Nagafen raids in early EQ, and especially with Vox, it was a fucking pain just getting everyone there. And if they're not all there at the start, well, you sure as shit aren't going to clear everything behind you to bring someone in. Oh, and then dumb fucks falling into the Vox pits AFTER the fight? So now you've finished the raid but you've still got shit to do. Just figuring out how to get everyone buffed was a nightmare.

I think breaking Plane of Fear and Hate are the best examples. It was a pain just to get to them, but wiping was incredibly common. I remember spending hours just doing a corpse recovery on a Fear raid that went terribly wrong. And you know what? It was fucking fun!

what happens if you're in Dragon Necropolis and your raid wipes deep in while another group is on your tail. Now you have to run back, summon corpses and get leapfrogged. What happens if you wiped in Veeshan's Peak and can't recover your corpse? What happens if you wipe in Fear at 3am in the morning and you cant get help recovering your raid? This type of whining is why games suck now
Right, there's a difference between running back to a static dungeon and having to discover an entirely new dungeon because the one you were in just vanished.
 

Big Flex

Fitness Fascist
4,314
3,166
Right, there's a difference between running back to a static dungeon and having to discover an entirely new dungeon because the one you were in just vanished.
Georgeson kind of addressed this in a recent interview with EQHammer.

EQHammer: Here's a curveball for you, and hopefully you'll know exactly what I'm getting at here.

Say I get my pickaxe out and dig down until I find a cool cavern, but decide I want to keep going and eventually make it three layers deep only to die a grisly death at the very bottom. Will my pickaxe be left on my corpse so that I have to do a naked corpse run through layers of Norrath to get my gear back?

Dave: [Laughs] We're not talking about death penalties yet. We will talk about them soon, but there's some give and take that we're still considering.

EQHammer: That would be quite the adventure though.

Dave: That would be an adventure! Especially since that cavern might not even be there anymore. We have earthquakes and all kinds of things, so probably not the naked corpse run.
 

Underjoyed_sl

shitlord
66
2
I think this is the point that people are forgetting about raiding in EQ. Travel was a fucking bitch. If you're on a different continent and can't find a port, you're talking about it taking HOURS to get to the raid. Even if you do get a port, you may die and then you're looking at corpse recovery. Or if not, unless you had JBoots, you were either begging for a SoW, or walking your slow ass to the raid.

I ran several Vox/Nagafen raids in early EQ, and especially with Vox, it was a fucking pain just getting everyone there. And if they're not all there at the start, well, you sure as shit aren't going to clear everything behind you to bring someone in. Oh, and then dumb fucks falling into the Vox pits AFTER the fight? So now you've finished the raid but you've still got shit to do. Just figuring out how to get everyone buffed was a nightmare.

I think breaking Plane of Fear and Hate are the best examples. It was a pain just to get to them, but wiping was incredibly common. I remember spending hours just doing a corpse recovery on a Fear raid that went terribly wrong. And you know what? It was fucking fun!
you just described what made EQ awesome and what no other game has been able to replicate.
 

Siliconemelons

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
11,865
17,831
AAANNNNDDD your assuming that you will leave a corpse, to be CR'ed ... most likely when you die you will just pop up with all your shit like nothing happened at your local not-a-quest-hub hub

but I would love CRs!
 

Borzak

Bronze Baron of the Realm
25,443
33,203
What sort of raids were you attending that you couldn't find a port? I thought that is what guilds were for.