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Caeden

Caeden

Golden Baronet of the Realm
7,581
12,534
I'm a filthy casual and you better fucking believe I buy into race/class restrictions. I chafed at Blizzard's "everyone can be death knights and monks" approach. Especially the DK. Should've been humans, undead, BE, and maybe orcs (lore says not this particular DK though). And it makes sense that the "bad" side has more races per evil class.
 
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Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
Caeden_sl said:
I'm a filthy casual and you better fucking believe I buy into race/class restrictions. I chafed at Blizzard's "everyone can be death knights and monks" approach. Especially the DK. Should've been humans, undead, BE, and maybe orcs (lore says not this particular DK though). And it makes sense that the "bad" side has more races per evil class.
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It all goes back into the same high-level paradigm: making the world consistent.

We have certain concepts and preconceptions from high fantasy of what a troll or ogre is, and they're invoking them in order for us to relate, then to purchase. It's possible you can change those concepts and preconceptions in our minds, but it's quite difficult and begs the question of why.

Whywould you not want evil races? Denial of service like a too dark night? Are you trying to give everyone freedom to play as the please?

Remember freedom only feels free if theworld feels consistent- otherwise what are you free from or free to do? If everybody can be anything at the push of a hotkey, from changing classes to troll paladins, then it no longer feels like you exist in a world, but the world exists for you.

There's an absolute huge feeling of difference in the freedom provided by Ultima Online and the freedom they're proposing and will likely turn into. Garriott never molded the world for the comfort or convenience of the player, but gave him a plethora of options. It seems McPherson's idea of freedom is to make the world submit to the player anytime the player wants to do or change something.
 
Mughal

Mughal

Bronze Knight of the Realm
279
39
Caeden_sl said:
I'm a filthy casual and you better fucking believe I buy into race/class restrictions. I chafed at Blizzard's "everyone can be death knights and monks" approach. Especially the DK. Should've been humans, undead, BE, and maybe orcs (lore says not this particular DK though). And it makes sense that the "bad" side has more races per evil class.
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But they are not a "good" and a "bad" side. Alliance is also a bunch of racist genocidal goons, Horde is also a proud race of enslaved individuals that is just escaping its past. They give multiple viewpoints to the sides so you do not play a single pre-constructed narrative where you are "bad" because someone tells you but it's your choice.

I admit then Blizzard does not give you any choice to use this free will to influence the world of the behavior of your side.
 
R

Running Dog_sl

shitlord
1,199
3
Laerazi_sl said:
...

That said, concerning dungeons and "random environment", I don't understand how this is supposed to work in a persistent world. If I go east from Qeynos and am running along the terrain, is this terrain being randomly generated? Is it like Minecraft, where it's generated once, and then persists forever? That way, each server would have different terrain?

A dev mentioned that storing the voxel data was extremely memory heavy, so they defer to randomization.. but how would that work, if the world is constantly being randomized.
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My take on it:

The random stuff starts with a single seed number (or maybe one seed per biome...). The client on your PC generates the world around you from that number, so all the memory-intensive stuff happens on your PC. Any changes to the world will have to be verified and stored on the server (so you can't dig or build on levels that don't exist on the server's idea of what state the world is in). This is one good reason why the environments will "heal" over time; the server doesn't have to remember persistent changes.
 
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jarrettmp_sl

shitlord
81
0
Lleauaric_sl said:
Heh. This quote made me think..

What a cool way to run a server. What if they basically gave the players a foothold on day 1, and the rest of the continent was wild and unsettled. There are no cities, no places to bind, no safe areas besides the beach head. A fantasy D-Day, played out over the course of the life of the server. Players would have to move forward as a server, reclaiming territory. As they cleared out an area, NPCs start settling there, building Inns or places they can bind, or transportation hubs. But clearing out an area takes ALOT killing or driving away huge indigenous populations. Does the horde of people move north? South? East? People would follow the crowd. Sort of aVolkswanderung. Each server would be completely different as different Macro choices triggered different Rallying Cries. Maybe a huge guild develops of Elves who decide they want to drive toward Faydark and open try to rebuild the HE city. What if over the course of the months, the path is so deep and narrow that other players don't follow in numbers, the cleared out path behind the elves closes and the HE players are fighting a Rallying Cry without much help from players of other races...

That... would be awesome.
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This would be really, really cool. Could have some PvE with regard to gathering resources like wood to build and shit. Then some more PvE cause maybe there's an entire City already in existence controlled by PvE monsters that is also trying to branch out and expand. Massive battles for resources, control, etc..

And incorporating PvP into it as well would be cool, too, if you had more than one human controlled force looking to build an empire.

That would be fun.
 
Jait

Jait

Molten Core Raider
5,035
5,317
Rhinohelix_sl said:
"But Anakin can't be a Jedi, he's a Sith!!11!"

This takes place before such lines had been drawn, when ogres and trolls were distasteful but not much more than those smelly humans who eventually go live in Halas.
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The fuck are you talking about?

Anakin didn't become a Jedi after being a Sith. The Jedi don't go around recruiting Sith. You're basically proving the entire point that if a Sith showed up and said I wanna be a Jedi, he/she would probably be immediately killed.

You fall into evil. You redeem yourself with good, but redeeming yourself usually means you die. And if you don't there's still going to be a large portion of the population who have suffered losses at your race/class/religion hands. You will be killed. There are no good Ogre/Troll/Orcs, and if there are...there are plenty of people who don't want them in their city. And a few who will outright kill them.
 
D

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
If they're big on player freedom, I just don't understand why they're sticking to classes so vehemently, unless they plan to sell them for station cash.

If you want to truly provide players the highest level of freedom in your world, break the idea of pocket classes and give players a huge number of skills to find, use, and increase. That way, the troll paladin makes himself, not selected on a change class dialog box.
 
Jait

Jait

Molten Core Raider
5,035
5,317
Dumar_sl said:
If they're big on player freedom, I just don't understand why they're sticking to classes so vehemently, unless they plan to sell them for station cash.

If you want to truly provide players the highest level of freedom in your world, break the idea of pocket classes and give players a huge number of skills to find, use, and increase. That way, the troll paladin makes himself, not selected on a change class dialog box.
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I have no problem with the evil races/good classes combo. I have a problem with them being able to shop anywhere but at the Gypsy and Derv camps or being accepted into "good" society. Drizzt was one of a kind, and even he didn't go where he pleased.
 
V

Vinyard_sl

shitlord
3,322
16
Caeden_sl said:
I'm a filthy casual and you better fucking believe I buy into race/class restrictions. I chafed at Blizzard's "everyone can be death knights and monks" approach. Especially the DK. Should've been humans, undead, BE, and maybe orcs (lore says not this particular DK though). And it makes sense that the "bad" side has more races per evil class.
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Pandaren can't be DK, and goblins/worgen can't be monks.
 
Lleauaric

Lleauaric

Sparkletot Monger
4,058
1,822
To some extent, isnt the way they are designing the game making class irrelevant anyway? I start off as a Warrior, but collect 10 classes which are stronger on caster side, and I like playing, so I play a DPS caster most of the time, placing my skill points and improving weapons and gear for that role.
 
Soygen

Soygen

The Dirty Dozen For the Price of One
<Nazi Janitors>
28,433
44,761
I voted to restrict race/class combos based on lore, however the importance of that is very low on my priorities for this game. The game running well and controlling well being the first thing. If those are in the shitter, everything else doesn't really matter. Assuming those things are all good, I need to know a lot more about the actual class combinations, abilities, etc.
 
Jait

Jait

Molten Core Raider
5,035
5,317
Lleauaric_sl said:
To some extent, isnt the way they are designing the game making class irrelevant anyway? I start off as a Warrior, but collect 10 classes which are stronger on caster side, and I like playing, so I play a DPS caster most of the time, placing my skill points and improving weapons and gear for that role.
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"Skill sets" might be a better term than class, but some skill sets are reserved for moral choices. Paladin/Shadowknight come to mind. But these are also roles. Shadowknights hurt people, they cause pain. Paladins tend to the sick and wounded, and protect the innocent. The skill sets represent this, the lore should also.
 
Zehnpai

Zehnpai

Molten Core Raider
399
1,245
Classes as starting templates (Morrowind) were okay. There's a fine line to be tread here. Too much freedom of choice and people will get intimidated. You can't have a way to really fuck it up without being able to fix it like in early DDO where people would quit once they realized they'd fucked up at character creation and were already a week in. Too little freedom and then people get upset when their selection gets gimped and they have no way to deal with it (Enchanters during a large portion of Velious anyone? "Clarity me and then stfu plz.")

Honestly I don't think this is one of those critical things. The only thing you really, truthfully need to avoid like the fucking plague is ability bloat like in EQ2 or WoW hunters. Other then that players will most likely adapt to whatever.
 
B

Bellringer_sl

shitlord
387
0
Zehn - Vhex_sl said:
Classes as starting templates (Morrowind) were okay. There's a fine line to be tread here. Too much freedom of choice and people will get intimidated. You can't have a way to really fuck it up without being able to fix it like in early DDO where people would quit once they realized they'd fucked up at character creation and were already a week in. Too little freedom and then people get upset when their selection gets gimped and they have no way to deal with it (Enchanters during a large portion of Velious anyone? "Clarity me and then stfu plz.")

Honestly I don't think this is one of those critical things. The only thing you really, truthfully need to avoid like the fucking plague is ability bloat like in EQ2 or WoW hunters. Other then that players will most likely adapt to whatever.
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You fix it by keep playing. Apparently you can do everything, be everything in the game. The balance to that is that it can take a long fucking time to do it. From what I have heard there will be no "respec". If you fuck up, then grind more and put the skill point into what you wanted to put it in. No loss other than time and effort.
 
Zehnpai

Zehnpai

Molten Core Raider
399
1,245
I think games like Skyrim show pretty handily that people by and large are okay with that. Even though you can max every skill in that game and eventually be a god at everything, most players tend to focus in one the 2 or 3 things they like doing most. Or load up TF2 and look at what class you play the most. I looked at mine and I've played the medic 5x as much as any other class.
 
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Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
Zehn - Vhex_sl said:
I think games like Skyrim show pretty handily that people by and large are okay with that. Even though you can max every skill in that game and eventually be a god at everything, most players tend to focus in one the 2 or 3 things they like doing most.
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Who wouldn't want to max resist magic or eval intelligence?
 
B

Bellringer_sl

shitlord
387
0
Weapons and possible skills mods on items can prevent doing everything with efficiency. There has to be some balance somewhere lol. Then again the comments about "we can add one item that can change the entire game" really worries me.
 
tad10

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,533
595
Zehn - Vhex_sl said:
Honestly I don't think this is one of those critical things. The only thing you really, truthfully need to avoid like the fucking plague is ability bloat like in EQ2 or WoW hunters. Other then that players will most likely adapt to whatever.
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I need some RPG in my MMORPG to keep playing past a certain point. That said the question should be do you want class restrictions and racial abilities for non-human races. Humans should have no racial ability and access to everything, other races should have racial abilities and lose access to 2-4 classes.
 
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