EQ Never

Rezz · Jun 28, 2013

Flipmode_sl said:
See this is where I think you guys go overboard and take what these "neck beards" as you call them out of context.

I think he understands we don't have 12 hours a day to play. That's all fine and good. But just because you don't have 12 hours to play doesn't mean the game should get easier for you so you can still be on the bleeding edge. You have to accept that the game doesn't revolve around you and your playtime.

That's what modern games have become. The world caters to the player. They want a world that caters to itself and you are just one person in it. If you can't spend 12 hours a day, you just can't keep up with the kids who can. You won't be on the bleeding edge. You can still progress, it just won't be as fast as the person who can dedicate more time to it. But that's the rub. You want a hardcore game that caters to you and well you can't really have both.

Admittedly, EQ catered to the concept of the player up until the end of PoP without it seeming to be the case. Prior to 2003-4ish, the average playtime was sort of ambiguous due to the nebulous nature of logouts in EQ. I mean shit, I had 360 days played 3 years into release and I am positive that like 1/6th of those were spent dozing at the keyboard or passed out on my couch while I waited for shit like rezzes or teleports or whatever. The poopsocker is what drove content in those days (because the world didn't give two fucks about EQ) so they catered to the poopsocker. When it became obvious that the poopsocker was but a minority of the hardcore raiding crowd, you had the shit that resulted in the Time limitations and eventual raid limit sizes. Better tuned encounters meant more metered progression through content and more easily met goals of having shit ready by the time that realistically it would be used. Or GoD, but then Sony was never the paragon of having all their ducks in a row.

Even though I clearly had the time (and I did, yay variable hours~) I would have still had wanted more tuned encounters vs. such freerange shit that acknowledged that you threw enough bodies to just overwhelm it. CT's revamp was soooo much easier when like 2/3 of the normal force showed vs. having the whole gang there. We just preformed better. I mean we basically single grouped shit in HoT before that was a real thing because it seemed "fun" for the top end of the guild. The rest couldn't have produced similar results on their best day maintained for weeks at a time. I loved that we involved people who didn't have the moxy to actually do shit in shit getting done, but I would much have prefered, even back in the day, the ability to move forward without having the stimga of leapfrogging your own guild attached to it. Instancing and the eventual move towards more tuned encounters is where I wanted to end up, and I am sure that EQ:N will continue this tradition.

Because it is a tradition, that started in EQ. Before WoW was ever released. And I hope that they continue this trend. But, you know, with sandbox style content relying on procedural generation and content that moves forward as the playerbase does somewhat dynamically. Pretty sure I've beaten that particular horse to death a few times before, though.

Also: Procedural content based upon ingame actions, not clock timers or other stupid bullshit.

Dumar_sl · Jun 28, 2013

qwerty_sl said:
It can be played with a controller because every fight can be won with 4 buttons. 99% of console players are totally hopeless, so the game will have to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator, and that's the army of 10 year old ps4 dude bros.

They will have no keyboards, so it will be screaming in your ears over voice coms, and they have no skill so it will be everything drops dead after you press X circle square. That's EQ Next.

That was also TF2. The reason grenades were removed from TFC was so TF2 could be played on Xbox.

Welcome to the new gaming industry. Biggest piece of garbage on the fucking planet.

qwertyqweqwertwqert · Jun 28, 2013

Dumar_sl said:
That was also TF2. The reason grenades were removed from TFC was so TF2 could be played on Xbox.

Welcome to the new gaming industry. Biggest piece of garbage on the fucking planet.

Urgh

Indeed.

Flipmode · Jun 28, 2013

Rezz_sl said:
Admittedly, EQ catered to the concept of the player up until the end of PoP without it seeming to be the case. Prior to 2003-4ish, the average playtime was sort of ambiguous due to the nebulous nature of logouts in EQ. I mean shit, I had 360 days played 3 years into release and I am positive that like 1/6th of those were spent dozing at the keyboard or passed out on my couch while I waited for shit like rezzes or teleports or whatever. The poopsocker is what drove content in those days (because the world didn't give two fucks about EQ) so they catered to the poopsocker. When it became obvious that the poopsocker was but a minority of the hardcore raiding crowd, you had the shit that resulted in the Time limitations and eventual raid limit sizes. Better tuned encounters meant more metered progression through content and more easily met goals of having shit ready by the time that realistically it would be used. Or GoD, but then Sony was never the paragon of having all their ducks in a row.

Even though I clearly had the time (and I did, yay variable hours~) I would have still had wanted more tuned encounters vs. such freerange shit that acknowledged that you threw enough bodies to just overwhelm it. CT's revamp was soooo much easier when like 2/3 of the normal force showed vs. having the whole gang there. We just preformed better. I mean we basically single grouped shit in HoT before that was a real thing because it seemed "fun" for the top end of the guild. The rest couldn't have produced similar results on their best day maintained for weeks at a time. I loved that we involved people who didn't have the moxy to actually do shit in shit getting done, but I would much have prefered, even back in the day, the ability to move forward without having the stimga of leapfrogging your own guild attached to it. Instancing and the eventual move towards more tuned encounters is where I wanted to end up, and I am sure that EQ:N will continue this tradition.

Because it is a tradition, that started in EQ. Before WoW was ever released. And I hope that they continue this trend. But, you know, with sandbox style content relying on procedural generation and content that moves forward as the playerbase does somewhat dynamically. Pretty sure I've beaten that particular horse to death a few times before, though.

Also: Procedural content based upon ingame actions, not clock timers or other stupid bullshit.

I agree with some of the things Qwerty, Dumar, and Tad desire. I do think leveling should be slowed way down. Classes should be interdependent. Loot should matter and be more meaningful. Combat should be slower and more tactical (not EQ slow and fucking never like EQ2 whack a mole combat). Grouping should be the default way to level and the most rewarding. It is an MMO after all.

They lose me at the camping for weeks on end, keying, back flagging and no instancing. I'm all for tools that speed up the monotony of a game. If a game is group centric but doesn't include the tools to help you make said group, that's asinine, IMO.

Instancing when over done is bad. That doesn't mean all instancing is bad. I've stated before, I'm ok with raid mobs needed for progression being instanced. Any time you give players the option to dictate another persons progression, they will generally block them and be dicks. Aside from playing on a FFA PVP server, there is nothing you could do either. The simple matter of fact is those with the most playtime and the favorable time zones always have the advantage in cases like contested content. Basically, anytime a person can grief another player it should be assumed they will.

I want EQN to advance MMOs. From what I know of the game at this point, it looks good. I don't care who believes I have "leet insider infoz" or not and I don't care to share what I know at this point because most of these fuckers will tear anything to shreds I share anyways so what's the point. Those that want EQ with better graphics will definitely be disappointed. But it's not WoW either. Those with reasonable expectations will be pleasantly surprised.

Caeden · Jun 28, 2013

Sounds good to me. I'm ready for something different. I personally would do away with raiding in favor of 5 and 10 man dungeons that are instance for 10m mobs and non-instanced for 5 man mobs.

Convo · Jun 28, 2013

Flipmode_sl said:
I want EQN to advance MMOs. From what I know of the game at this point, it looks good. I don't care who believes I have "leet insider infoz" or not and I don't care to share what I know at this point because most of these fuckers will tear anything to shreds I share anyways so what's the point. Those that want EQ with better graphics will definitely be disappointed. But it's not WoW either. Those with reasonable expectations will be pleasantly surprised.

That's a pretty broad statement man. I'm not saying you don't have insider info but come on.. You basically just said what the general consensus has been from the get go. Either way.. I agree with a lot of your post but think there are somethings that can be used from EQ without bringing back the long camps. Keying can be used like we discussed but just key the guild tag and not the player. I think that is a more reasonable approach.

qwertyqweqwertwqert · Jun 28, 2013

Flipmode_sl said:
I agree with some of the things Qwerty, Dumar, and Tad desire. I do think leveling should be slowed way down. Classes should be interdependent. Loot should matter and be more meaningful. Combat should be slower and more tactical (not EQ slow and fucking never like EQ2 whack a mole combat). Grouping should be the default way to level and the most rewarding. It is an MMO after all.

Great

Flipmode_sl said:
They lose me at the camping for weeks on end, keying, back flagging and no instancing.

I'm not a fan of that stuff. I hated camping stuff for too long. I loved camping for an item one afternoon and eventually getting it, but throwing 70+ hours at the jboots ring and still not getting it, was just crap. Keying and flagging was largely caused me to quit EQ for good. And instancing, I really don't care, I can take it or leave it. I would even be perfectly fine with every dungeon being an instance, if it was done right. The only thing I don't like are dungeons that are identical every time, easy to handle, and teleport people to and from it. But if they were challenging, had some significant randomization and potential for chaos, and required the players to actually travel to and from it, then I would be perfectly happy. In other words, I like the idea of instancing in technical terms, it's just that instanced dungeons are currently done badly by dumb games. But that has nothing to do with the instancing technology itself.

Flipmode_sl said:
Those that want EQ with better graphics will definitely be disappointed. But it's not WoW either. Those with reasonable expectations will be pleasantly surprised.

Well like I said before, I can live with anything - fast xp, slow xp, voice chat, instancing, whatever, none of it is make or break it. I played Rift for almost 2 months after all. But the only thing I can't accept, is dumbed down gameplay, mobs that die in seconds, and constantly being lead by the nose.

Malinatar · Jun 28, 2013

Flipmode_sl said:
I agree with some of the things Qwerty, Dumar, and Tad desire. I do think leveling should be slowed way down. Classes should be interdependent. Loot should matter and be more meaningful. Combat should be slower and more tactical (not EQ slow and fucking never like EQ2 whack a mole combat). Grouping should be the default way to level and the most rewarding. It is an MMO after all.

Me playing EQ back in '99 not sure if I agree with grouping being the default way UNLESS they provide some way to make finding groups extremely easy and/or provide meaningful incentives to do so. Also, regarding leveling speed, I'm a bit torn on this as well and I think there needs to be some balance where it doesn't take as long as EQ, but sure as hell not as fast as WoW or any of the other more recent MMOs. I remember how people were bitching on this board in fact with how slow leveling was in Tera/Aion (which I tended to agree with) and that was a fraction of a time it took to get to max level in classic EQ so while it might sound good in theory, I suspect when in practice it won't be as satisfying as one might think. Finally they need to bring AAs (or some other non gear based) way to improve your character, or different levels of character "evolution" where after you achieve a certain rank/level, you can "evolve" (throw a long ass epic quest into the mix) to a more powerful class like a hero class or something along those lines where you can start to leveling once again. /shrug

Flipmode · Jun 28, 2013

Convo_sl said:
That's a pretty broad statement man. I'm not saying you don't have insider info but come on.. You basically just said what the general consensus has been from the get go. Either way.. I agree with a lot of your post but think there are somethings that can be used from EQ without bringing back the long camps. Keying can be used like we discussed but just key the guild tag and not the player. I think that is a more reasonable approach.

I'm not claiming to have all the details on every aspect of the game. There is still stuff I want to know more of. It's just funny reading these broad statements and time tables from various posters theorycrafting on what is and isn't possible. Either they are full of shit, or my friends working on the game are. Guess who I believe?

ZyyzYzzy · Jun 28, 2013

Flipmode_sl said:
See this is where I think you guys go overboard and take what these "neck beards" as you call them out of context.

I think he understands we don't have 12 hours a day to play. That's all fine and good. But just because you don't have 12 hours to play doesn't mean the game should get easier for you so you can still be on the bleeding edge. You have to accept that the game doesn't revolve around you and your playtime.

That's what modern games have become. The world caters to the player. They want a world that caters to itself and you are just one person in it. If you can't spend 12 hours a day, you just can't keep up with the kids who can. You won't be on the bleeding edge. You can still progress, it just won't be as fast as the person who can dedicate more time to it. But that's the rub. You want a hardcore game that caters to you and well you can't really have both.

I'm not taking Dumar out of context though. I said I don't mind D3 right now because I can log on for an hour, gain paragon exp and get some entertainment.

He replied with how people with my attitude are ruining the game industry and how you should have to invest an enormous amount of time to accomplish anything in a GAME. Sorry, that is bullshit, a game shouldn't be akin to sticking my ball sack in a vice when I play it. I don't mind challenge but camping shares for hours on end for a VT key isn't good game design.

Sorry to all the neck beards, but I hope EQN has a decent pace for leveling (not retarded WoW speed) but something where even lower levels tale a bit more time and skills and abilities are gained through actually doing quests and whatnot. There is no need to alternate progression to start at max level. This way people like me who play for an hour after getting home from work and spending time with family can still progress a character. Hell even make it so ridiculously rare spawns drop an item that allow for the completion of longer harder quest that gives an slightly better ability, but don't make it mandatory. It wouldn't be hard to appease both crowds.

Sorry qwerty, WoW does appeal to some hardcore raiders while appealing to the masses. They took a different route than EQ. In EQ you had tier 2 or lower guilds completing content in an expansion when a new one was released, primarily because new levels, gear and AA would allow them to. WoW took a different, quicker approach and made gear attainable from the previous their and added different levels of difficulty to the same raids. Granted, most of us would prefer the EQ approach, WoW still has extremely difficult content.

qwertyqweqwertwqert · Jun 28, 2013

Flipmode_sl said:
Guess who I believe?

I don't care what anyone says anyway. It could have all the features I ever dreamt of, but until I actually play an MMO for myself, I wont know if I like it or not.

On paper, GW2 sounded like the most amazing mindblowingly fucking great game I've heard about in the past 20 something years. A few hours in to beta... "well that all turned out to be a pile of horse shit."

Flipmode · Jun 28, 2013

Malinatar_sl said:
Me playing EQ back in '99 not sure if I agree with grouping being the default way UNLESS they provide some way to make finding groups extremely easy and/or provide meaningful incentives to do so. Also, regarding leveling speed, I'm a bit torn on this as well and I think there needs to be some balance where it doesn't take as long as EQ, but sure as hell not as fast as WoW or any of the other more recent MMOs. I remember how people were bitching on this board in fact with how slow leveling was in Tera/Aion (which I tended to agree with) and that was a fraction of a time it took to get to max level in classic EQ so while it might sound good in theory, I suspect when in practice it won't be as satisfying as one might think. Finally they need to bring AAs (or some other non gear based) way to improve your character, or different levels of character "evolution" where after you achieve a certain rank/level, you can "evolve" (throw a long ass epic quest into the mix) to a more powerful class like a hero class or something along those lines where you can start to leveling once again. /shrug

I specifically mentioned having the tools to make grouping easy if you require it as the best and most efficient way of leveling. LFG tool is mandatory for any MMO IMO.

In regards to leveling speed, I don't mind taking a 3-6 months to hit cap at a reasonable play level. Really, what is the rush if the content is good? I am so tired of maxing out my character in a month of playtime. It's beyond retarded. This is a case where we are our own worst enemies. We bitch wow is too fast but Tera is too slow. Can't have it both ways.

Convo · Jun 28, 2013

qwerty_sl said:
I don't care what anyone says anyway. It could have all the features I ever dreamt of, but until I actually play an MMO for myself, I wont know if I like it or not.

On paper, GW2 sounded like the most amazing mindblowingly fucking great game I've heard about in the past 20 something years. A few hours in to beta... "well that all turned out to be a pile of horse shit."

Pretty much.. The game has to have that hook to it. Original EQ did that well. Maybe it was the unknown as new players but it still grabbed you when you logged in

Flipmode · Jun 28, 2013

qwerty_sl said:
I don't care what anyone says anyway. It could have all the features I ever dreamt of, but until I actually play an MMO for myself, I wont know if I like it or not.

On paper, GW2 sounded like the most amazing mindblowingly fucking great game I've heard about in the past 20 something years. A few hours in to beta... "well that all turned out to be a pile of horse shit."

Again we don't disagree. Me playing it will be the determining factor if I like the game.

qwertyqweqwertwqert · Jun 28, 2013

ZyyzYzzy_sl said:
Sorry qwerty, WoW does appeal to some hardcore raiders while appealing to the masses. They took a different route than EQ.

Maybe so, but I hate raiding so... no good to me. I like the levelling process so when games like WoW and Rift have a disposable noobified level process, the promise of a good raid end game is zero consolation.

To me it's like they are saying, here is a big piece of steak, it's extremely chewy and tasteless and horrible to eat. But once you actually finally swallow it... at least you will get food poisoning and maybe die.

Fingz_sl · Jun 28, 2013

On a scale of 1 to 10: "How close will Sony get to making your perfect game?"

mkopec · Jun 28, 2013

Yep, its all a matter of personal taste. Fuck, I liked mt 2-3 month stay in SWTOR, while others hated it.../shrug

I agree on slowing down the leveling. Everything matters more with slower levels. Gear upgrades, new weapon, new skill, spell, they are all greater rewards than in a system like WoW where you level so fast and get so much gear/skills/spells thrown at you that it ceases to be a reward anymore. It becomes a never ending snooze fest all the way to cap, where the "real" game begins. Fuck that noise.

Im also not drawn in by the "raid" end game. I could give 2 shits about some set raiding schedule at 7pm-11pm every other day, fuck that. Ill play my games when I want.

Caeden · Jun 28, 2013

That was something that killed GW2 for me: you've basically gotten all your skills by level 10. Sure, there are traits but they nearly felt like they were all super passive. I guess they were. I haven't played since October.

I also felt like every class was essentially the same. Everyone had range and melee. Everyone seemed to have support. Everything was cooldown based. No unique resources or really mixed play styles. I guess maybe some like with the necro where some abilities scaled by how many conditions you got on your target, but outside of dodging classes felt bland.

Draegan_sl · Jun 28, 2013

Flipmode_sl said:
I agree with some of the things Qwerty, Dumar, and Tad desire. I do think leveling should be slowed way down. Classes should be interdependent. Loot should matter and be more meaningful. Combat should be slower and more tactical (not EQ slow and fucking never like EQ2 whack a mole combat). Grouping should be the default way to level and the most rewarding. It is an MMO after all.

They lose me at the camping for weeks on end, keying, back flagging and no instancing. I'm all for tools that speed up the monotony of a game. If a game is group centric but doesn't include the tools to help you make said group, that's asinine, IMO.

Instancing when over done is bad. That doesn't mean all instancing is bad. I've stated before, I'm ok with raid mobs needed for progression being instanced. Any time you give players the option to dictate another persons progression, they will generally block them and be dicks. Aside from playing on a FFA PVP server, there is nothing you could do either. The simple matter of fact is those with the most playtime and the favorable time zones always have the advantage in cases like contested content. Basically, anytime a person can grief another player it should be assumed they will.

I want EQN to advance MMOs. From what I know of the game at this point, it looks good. I don't care who believes I have "leet insider infoz" or not and I don't care to share what I know at this point because most of these fuckers will tear anything to shreds I share anyways so what's the point. Those that want EQ with better graphics will definitely be disappointed. But it's not WoW either. Those with reasonable expectations will be pleasantly surprised.

I agree with this almost completely, but that depends on what you mean by slowing down leveling. I think WOW 1.0 had a really nice leveling curve with 5-8 days /played to max.

The only thing I can't see myself playing for more than a week or two is a game that is hotbar/tab target based with 20 abilities on 3 hotbars. Give me GW2, Wildstar, NWN style of creating layouts from your abilities. I like the deck building aspect.

Also give me GW2/Wildstar soft tageting combat system at the very least. Ideally, I would love to have TERA's combat in every game.

Draegan_sl · Jun 28, 2013

Caeden_sl said:
That was something that killed GW2 for me: you've basically gotten all your skills by level 10. Sure, there are traits but they nearly felt like they were all super passive. I guess they were. I haven't played since October.

I also felt like every class was essentially the same. Everyone had range and melee. Everyone seemed to have support. Everything was cooldown based. No unique resources or really mixed play styles. I guess maybe some like with the necro where some abilities scaled by how many conditions you got on your target, but outside of dodging classes felt bland.

That was GW2's problem. Every time I played a class to level 20-30 I felt like I wanted to reroll because I've seen everything and I had another 60-50 levels to go. The issue was the traits were quite powerful and changed how you played your class (for the most part) however there was a very soft curve to them that you could not notice as you leveled. But if you compared a level 20 to a level 60 then to 80 there was a huge difference.

GW2 had too many levels to start the game with and things were very saturated.

I also appreciate what GW2 tried to do with getting rid of the trinity. It had to be tried, and people learned that they really do like have roles to play. Fortunately, that style of play fits what GW2 likes to do which is a lot of solo or open zerg content.

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