EQ Never

Ukerric

Bearded Ape
<Silver Donator>
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One starting city means everyone does the same quests, will then have the same gear, and will then funnel to whatever lower-mid level content exists all together.
What are those quests thing you speak of? You mean the epic weapon quests, right?

First thing: If you do assume a WoW-theme-park-exclamation-point-quested-gearing-model, then, yes, it fails. If you don't, then it should not. You always complain about the on-rail-thing, and the very first indication that there's no rails, you immediately assume that they're doing another WoW clone. I'm also pretty sure you think that each of their five tiers is split into 10 sub-tiers, making it 50 sort-of-levels, right?
 

Ukerric

Bearded Ape
<Silver Donator>
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Not to have some little magical BOOK telling me what or where I should go.
Well, to be honest, you do have a virtual magic hint book. It has a Google rainbow logo on it.

The only question is, do you open the hint book you have in-game, or do you open the hint book in the browser windows next to your game?

You all seem to have difficulties about the difference between directions and objectives. The yellow mark denotes an objective. You get a measurable target, and you get a specific reward when you complete the objective. If you don't take the objective, you don't get the reward. The hint book gives directions. You don't get a target. You don't get a reward for doing that specific content in your hint book that you wouldn't have gotten if you did not had an hint book pointing you to it.

That's the difference between directions and objectives. WoW has objectives. GW2 has objectives (without the "!", it's auto-accepted). EQN is supposed to have directions.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,380
276
Don't use it.
Come on Tad, that's like saying you can group-grind to cap on elites in WoW (which you can!) so it's just like EQ.

This guidebook (depending on and the focus on RCs sound like the opposite of sandbox. At first it sounded like RCs take place and you decide to take part or not (obviously still the same, you can stay away). But the comments lately like the RC being the newbie start point and 'getting right to where the action is' put too much emphasis on the RCs for my taste. Makes me fear that the rest of the world is just there so it can be a location for future RCs and in otherwise uninteresting.

I want to hear some about the handcrafted content they will have. Info from the convention was that they have alot of that, I suppose then they should have more concrete plans then that one example with the relic in the mine.
 

Big Flex

Fitness Fascist
4,314
3,166
As one of my final pre-vacation internet actions, i called out the dev team about the Rohsong book being a yellow exclaimation point / quest hub etc, so keep an eye out for clarification on twitter.

rrr_img_40842.jpg


See you next weekend.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
Come on Tad, that's like saying you can group-grind to cap on elites in WoW (which you can!) so it's just like EQ..
I didn't want to get into a dick-wagging fest over the differences between "?" and the "Rohsong Book" because we've seen one but not the other. I tend to agree with Ukerric and Lleauric that the big isn't the DCUO communicator you seem to think it is - we'll see.

@BigFlex enjoy your vacation.
 

Denaut

Trump's Staff
2,739
1,279
I've mentioned this sort of briefly before. It's actually pretty easy (physically, not necessarily psychologically) to stay away from players. You basically have to not go anywhere near them, never read anything, stay off of twitter, etc. This, of course, sucks. It is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

The middle ground is to only interact with players through official forums where the developer has some sort of moderating power or things get pre-filtered for them based on their desires. This generally seems to work the best if it is the kind of interaction you want.

But, overall, the reason developers don't interact with players much is because players are very ego-centric. They can rarely see the big picture and also drastically favor what theypersonallylike. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING in game development is a trade-off. This goes from design considerations down to actual implementation time.

Nobody gets everything they want, not even the developers, and no developer wants to get cursed out and called an idiot for a very difficult decision (based on real-world constraints) that either they made or someone else made.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,538
7,842
I totally agree, however, the don't get to play the 'we're not out to dumb down your games' card after Butler looks way too pleased with himself when he claims the darkness of night in EQ was a 'Denial of service'.

Ridiculous.

I don't want 'more information', I want HONEST information.
 

Teekey

Mr. Poopybutthole
3,644
-6,335
1) Multiclassing - I, as many other do, worry that this will strip the class role individuality from the game and essentially turn everyone into a carbon copy of everyone else. They want the players to have their cake and eat it too, and I'm not convinced this is entirely a good thing.
100% valid concern. I think they're banking on the fact that you'll have hundreds, if not thousands of multiclassing options which will help you to not only distinguish yourself, but really customize yourself to the point that you take ownership of your own created classes. There's a lot of potential backlash because some/many players want and like a singular class identity.

2) Destructibility/Voxels - Is this the most egregious form of instancing we're ever going to see? Are they really trying to pawn it off as "earthquakes" and expect us to wipe our chins and walk away? Come on, SOE.
If the entire underworld is instanced/phased - I'm going to be just as annoyed as you. I'm okay with procedurally a generated underworld/dungeons as long as it's shared by everyone. I don't really see how they can allow 100% permanent destructibility while maintaining the integrity of the game, however. So I think some type of healing/earthquake mechanic will be necessary. And in the long run, I think actually adds to replayability.

3) Emergent AI - They're not giving NPCs human brains. There's going to be a finite amount of directions an NPC is going to take, and that finite number will eventually be figured out. It will be figured out, mapped, cheated, and published for everyone to see.....which essentially makes it useless.
This is by far the biggest wildcard. The entire success of this game I think depends on how good the AI is. Not only to create an interesting 'living' world that they're claiming, but also a meaningful combat system that's necessary without Trinity-style roles.

The truth is though, I don't really have a problem with the AI being 'figured out'. If I fight an Orc, he should act like an Orc. After slaying hundreds of Orcs, I should know what to expect when I fight them. I think they were exaggerating to suggest that mobs will 'learn' during fights. In the end, they're just going to perform actions from a multi-balanced scale, based on whichever action has more 'weight' at the given time.

4) Rallying Calls - I'm torn on this. It's going to be so incredibly difficult for them to really make them "epic" and I think they're wagering too much of the success of this game on something that's so completely untested. What if nobody gives a shit about your rallying call?
There's definitely potential. They're certainly not the first game to have server-wide one-time events, so hopefully they can learn from games before them. I can understand and accept that the large Rallying Calls are a one-way street, since it's going to be their primary story-telling method. But I do really hope they consider smaller Rallying Call events which can truly go either way (dependent on the players), and permanently change the server. I don't know if they'll consider that though, because they don't want players 'griefing' each other. But we can hope.
 

dechire

Bronze Knight of the Realm
323
74
I'm going to comment on this developer fear at some-point. Its actually a tangible fear. I have to get into work first.
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
25,398
37,481
Wow, all this negativity and bitching and we really dont know shit yet. Im gonna stay an optimist here. At least they are trying something truly innovative and new. And this alone has got my blood pumping to my boner. Now whether this will all pan out to be a good game? Who the fuck knows. Right? Too much fucking speculation here. You have a handful of facts, vague ones at that, and yet you extrapolate these facts into all negative shit. I know, sure, most mmorpgs end up sucking right? And this one will probably as well. But im still hoping here folks. Come on, at least they are trying to break the tired 15 yr old mold that has not even slightly improved.
 

dechire

Bronze Knight of the Realm
323
74
I've mentioned this sort of briefly before. It's actually pretty easy (physically, not necessarily psychologically) to stay away from players. You basically have to not go anywhere near them, never read anything, stay off of twitter, etc.
Sooo this really isn't an option with MMO devs, in most cases of western AA - AAA MMORPG the development and especially the release of a game is a huge effort with a lot of different employees working "together" to release and support a game. This can be upwards of 300 or so employees all housed in one spot. In just about every case you can find this buildings location pretty easily. Its really not that hard. In the 10 years or so I worked in the industry I saw no less than 25 walk ups from players to our building in Austin. These kids would show up and DEMAND support from the receptionist who really wasn't equipped to deal with the varying levels of crazy that walked in. They eventually changed how this worked but its still possible to get inside the building or snipe the smokers outside. One kid flew in from western Europe to demand an audience with the lead GM. There was also the case of the kid who threatened the community manager with finding her and killing her or bombing her place of employment. He was arrested. Players are passionate and passion can be a funny thing in the mind. In S.Korea they have walk up support on a constant basis and its always behind bullet proof glass. So fear is a real thing and to not be afraid is stupid, it just takes one time for that kid to walk in and follow through with his threats even if most of the time they are harmless.

Developers do not really have the option to stay away from us. We are constantly demanding their attention. We wouldn't let them anyway the comments alone about Georgeson alone in this illustrate that point. We got Big Flex "Calling them out" like its a street fight or something. Calling someone out is an inherent threat, whats Flex going to do if they don't comply? Now I realize that Flex is not going to do that and that's probably not how he meant the phrase I am just trying to illustrate the point.

/shrug
 

Furious

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
2,921
4,994
Boo hoo at scared devs. I work in northern Alberta in the tar sands, our plane, site, oil lines and families have been threatened by natives, hippies, movie executives and so on. Having our plane diverted because of threats is not rare. Do we cry?

Nope. We go to work and give you assholes gas.

Have a nice drive
smile.png
 

Caliane

Avatar of War Slayer
14,569
10,064
Applies to EQN.

Point on "oversimplified puzzles" I find weak. He talks about vamperisim in Morrowind. other games have done this too. no clear guide in game how to do anything. rules or how to be cleansed. you need to read the journals, books etc to sort out myths. The problem with this is, you as the player have no idea what is a red herring. A player can not tell what is just a rumor and what is a real hidden thing in a game. FFS, you could easily dick around players for years, just by adding a "locked" door in a game. have it the only interactable locked door in the game. but not put any key in. Players would be looking for that key that doesn't exist for YEARS. dirty pool. Hiding things in games is too easy. You are basically forcing players to datamine/noclip. Think of all the stupid fake rumors in video games already? Ermacs, and shit.
Or if your hints are entirely too vague.
Aka, Castlevania 2:
Hit Deborah Cliff with your head to make a hole
Wait for a soul with a red crystal on Deborah Cliff.

Video games are not real sandboxes. So, no matter how complex or open you make it, you still need to create very specific conditions for a player to succeed. The worst is when the player knows what he is supposed to be doing, but doesn't know to kneel, and thus thinks he got something wrong, and moves on. the bigger the world, the worse this is.
This is where highlighting interactive items came into play for example. Make a puzzle where a player needs to cut a rope in a basement. Fill the house with random items. Well, in theory there should be a like a hundred things a player could use to cut. the scissors, his sword, a kitchen knife, a broken piece of wood, that crystal shard the player may or may not have from random quest #1234.. but wait, do we even really need to cut it? can we burn it? Can we smash whatever it was attached too? The well just gets deeper and deeper. At some point the player will hit a puzzle that they will know the answer to. but the developer didn't think of the player coming at it from that angle, and hit that wall of disappointment. or alternatively, puzzles act more like adventure game puzzles with 1 clear solution, that acts more like a riddle, then a sandbox. Devs do this for a reason. Granted, some do it better then others.

Granted. giant go here Arrows aren't exactly good.

In game directions would be pretty cool of course. "there is a bandit camp, East along the kings road. turn north at the 3rd signpost to find the hidden trail." shit like that would be great no doubt. But I imagine they don't do that so much, as there is a disconnect between writing scripts and world building. Massive Q/A would be needed to make sure no directions in the script, got changed when the world itself was being built, or a patch reworked something.