EQ TLP - Mischief (Free Trade / Random Loot)

It is a novel idea and what I still consider to be the best way to combat RMT on such a server. I think it will benefit the guild more in the deeper expansions when there is a lot of actual usable loot. Many people don't understand that basically nothing matters in class/kunark. Get your epics and wear resist/hp gear. Thats it.

I don't know how you don't feel like a McDonald's burger flipper helping fuel the lavish lifestyle of the executives or something of that nature. It's a corporation and most of the members are peons. I think it will only get worse Velious and beyond, at least until you hit some real attrition.

That's a very real point. I think with the size of guild that is being used for this its hurting the average person. Too little loot for too many mouths. That is balanced a bit with a DKP guild in that nothing outside of raiding influences the distribution of loot. In a GDKP guild everything outside influences it. Once you can't zerg things and once attrition hits the numbers scale way down. The system does work when it is mostly the same crew every raid with minor outside influence. I wonder how people would feel if these high ticket items were sold under the table after the raids like they are in nearly all previous TLPs? Would you still feel like you're not benefitting from the system when someone drops all their dkp to snag up the first PD loot then immediately sells their character?

Not to out Foaming (but I am), me and him speculated years ago that if they ever did a free trade server, a GDKP/plat guild would be the way to go for various reasons. It made a lot of sense on paper. I wasn't involved in FxIV (have been casual on the server, just hit 60 the day before Kunark), but I have like 10ish people from my Bertoxx guild involved in it and a bunch of former guildies who were raiding with them.

My perception is there's a couple key areas where the GDKP guild model breaks down for a lot of people.

1. Split payouts by themselves aren't really enough at present to turn around and kit out your character. In theory if you've made every raid, you could have bought like 1 CoF. In Classic/Kunark you don't even need gear anyway, but that isn't what makes most people play EQ. People psychologically like to get items regularly, the sort of people who aren't well set up to buy gear from raids in a GDKP guild, probably are not going to be inspired to stick around when splits is all they'll get.

2. A GDKP guild tends to become little more than a mercenary group. Minimal to zero guild loyalty or etc, everything being pure krono based. Ex. in a traditional guild people would call out if Skyfire pearls dropped to see if any CLR wanted to come loot them, it's hard to imagine in FxIV people doing that instead of selling them.

I have heard a lot of complaints from former guildies of mine about FxIV, often times these were people who loved attending the Krim plat raids on Selo. I have kind of told them that most of their complaints sound like features, not bugs, of a GDKP guild. The thing about a "side" GDKP raid, like we had on Selo and Agnarr, is that you have those main DKP raids to take care of all the people who either aren't krono lords or whales, and the GDKP raids turn into just a fun way to get a krono or so a week in raid splits courtesy of 5-10 whales who go to them and like to drop major krono on items. I think when that's all every raid you do is, it just doesn't work for some people.

That being said FxIV beat VP and largely seems to be doing fine. If there was one of the "traditional" big power TLP guilds who had come to the server with a standard guild, I think FxIV would be a #2 guild likely consigned to DZs, but I also think they'd be fine with that. My understanding is originally the guild was intended to have no batphone, and largely just acquired one when they realized literally no one else on the server was even going to batphone anything. I think the GDKP will work for a lot of people, but does have some aspects that I know when Foaming and I were speculating on it years ago, I didn't foresee.

The one big thing is if you don't do a GDKP guild, how do you really regulate what a whole raid force does with tradeable gear? That's one thing that kinda lead me and Foaming to assuming a plat guild would be the way to go--the baseline assumption is on a free trade server most people will be naked all the time selling all their gear, and trying to restrict that from an officer perspective will be a nightmare. Then again, there are raid guilds on FV that have cleared all content up through CoV, so it must be possible on some level.

Numbers for June 2021

Avg High
Mischief - 2715
Thornblade - 1359
Aradune - 824

Avg Low
Mischief - 722
Thornblade - 395
Aradune - 242

Foaming said:

That's a very real point. I think with the size of guild that is being used for this its hurting the average person. Too little loot for too many mouths. That is balanced a bit with a DKP guild in that nothing outside of raiding influences the distribution of loot. In a GDKP guild everything outside influences it. Once you can't zerg things and once attrition hits the numbers scale way down. The system does work when it is mostly the same crew every raid with minor outside influence. I wonder how people would feel if these high ticket items were sold under the table after the raids like they are in nearly all previous TLPs? Would you still feel like you're not benefitting from the system when someone drops all their dkp to snag up the first PD loot then immediately sells their character?

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Personally, the "burn your DKP and sell your character" thing wouldn't bother me as much because I know it's limited. You can't buy every item in the raid and you will no longer be in the guild to buy items after. Even if you make a new account and rejoin, you have to start accruing DKP. Like you said, with GDKP, the outside influences everything.

Now, if they're selling these items and staying in the guild? Well, unfortunately someone would have to gear check, which is awful and annoying work. They would still be limited by DKP on how often they could do that, though. And even if people slip through the cracks, eventually they'll get a guild boot unless it's the leadership.

I mean, I'm only in FXV to hit OW targets and make a little coin from that, since that's the only place to be for OW. My "real" main will be in another guild (when we're out of these lesser eras).

Selo taught us all a lot. You basically don't need any loot at all to raid early EQ. I took that knowledge to Rizlona and have only gone after true era spanning chase items. Things like SotI and Tunare belt. Items that take years to be replaced AND have a super significant impact on your character. I've never felt less of a character for it and I play a Warrior in the top raid guild there.

People are still holding onto this long out dated notion that gear matters on these TLPs. Baseline character power combined with knowledge has rendered even the massively inflated raid bosses (thanks to MotM) push overs. I say enjoy your plat split and save for late Luclin/PoP.

DickTrickle said:

I mean, I'm only in FXV to hit OW targets and make a little coin from that, since that's the only place to be for OW. My "real" main will be in another guild (when we're out of these lesser eras).

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This is actually quite more than you think even now. I know a more than a bunch of people with mains in DKP guilds to play the game and just do OW stuff with faceless on a alt to "supplement" income.

Foaming said:

Selo taught us all a lot. You basically don't need any loot at all to raid early EQ. I took that knowledge to Rizlona and have only gone after true era spanning chase items. Things like SotI and Tunare belt. Items that take years to be replaced AND have a super significant impact on your character. I've never felt less of a character for it and I play a Warrior in the top raid guild there.

People are still holding onto this long out dated notion that gear matters on these TLPs. Baseline character power combined with knowledge has rendered even the massively inflated raid bosses (thanks to MotM) push overs. I say enjoy your plat split and save for late Luclin/PoP.

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Gear matters for epeen always. It matters for what you can do with your group or small man force. Still a ton of noobs (never played TLP types) on this server with their nostalgia boners. So, even if the veterans know to lay off, they're still completely taken over by those willing to spend and getting no loot except plat/krono does get a bit boring after a while if that was the only raiding you were doing.

Gear absolutely doesn't matter at all for ages on a TLP. At the same time, I think it does matter, just for reasons unrelated to "beating content." There's different schools of TLPer. Some want to beat content, and for them, gear really is kinda w/e. But a lot of people on TLPs are there for nostalgia time, and really want to get some item they've lusted after since they were 14, but back then they were massive cucks and couldn't get raid gear, so now that they're 35 they can no life a TLP for a few months and get a Gharn's or a AHR necklace and promptly quit playing. For those players they need some sense of access to gear to keep them motivated to keep going.

There's also less extreme versions where the person just really emotionally likes the "filling out the paper doll" aspect of gearing a char, and regularly getting raid loot creates a positive feedback loop, much like you experience from drinking alcohol or eating fast food. It feels good, so makes you want to keep doing it. Much like alcohol and fast food, TLPing eventually causes you many problems.

I feel like it was just too much greed. Brought out the worst in people. Sure it happened on regular servers with selling LR and MQs, but it wasn't even close to the rate it does when its part of the ruleset. I tend to raid to hang out with people and gear a character out. And it feels like a vast majority are only doing it to earn more krono. Either to tell people how big their krono stash is or straight sell items/krono for $. Basically turning it into a job. Now they will say they are doing it to save up for later expansions. But I get feeling they already have large stashes and will do the same thing then because the flip profit will be even higher.

While GDKP and DKP can be somewhat similar in that you raid x times to earn currency to buy items. The latter is finite and depending on your raids. The former has no limit and can be earned forever outside raids. Not to mention you don't even have to raid to buy, just to get a cut. Which for a lot of people, you could earn far more just farming yourself or doing small man DZs then use the guild to buy what you want(if you didn't get it in your small raids). Hell there are people that only keep a character in guild to buy things for their main in another guild.

It seems I enjoy GDKP when its a once weekly occurance for some extra plat and fun but not the main focus of your playtime. I just don't play the game to earn more krono in every aspect. I joined a small man team in classic to do some DZs and it was fun as in less people = more challenge, more personal. I enjoyed the players in that but even that felt like I had to do it to earn any kind of currency to pay for future items. And that just saps my spirit it seems, playing for krono to try to keep up with whales, re-sellers etc.

It just baffles me that there are actually people who play this game to RMT/amass krono. How could it possibly be more fucking profitable than working at your local McDonald's making $15/hour? I can't imagine that even the fucking ultra MQ2, Sam Da Man boxers are pulling down more than 30-40k/year.

Cukernaut said:

I think some people can get short opportunist hits on launches and they are in and out as a fun hobby that makes a small amount of extra money -- which is different than "professionals".

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Oh, almost certainly people pull in the vast, vast majority of their krono selling haul very shortly after an expac unlock. Thing is, after about 2-3 weeks, I have to imagine that shit is as dry as a grandma's pussy. Which further begs the question, "Why?". A couple extra hundred bucks in a month? It just screams like some degenerate, I live with my parents/get subsidies from my government and sell drugs on the side sort of lifestyle.

I had a friend who would RMT in PoE after a new update and this was pretty much exactly him. He'd stay up for 24-48hrs, amass massive amounts of loot, RMT it all over the first 2-3 weeks, and was a total loser who drove a piece of shit car, lived in a dumpy apartment with his mom, etc.

Furry said:

Why not both. I have tons of time to game/read books/fuck around at my job.

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The "serious" kronolords aren't able to hold a steady job and RMT fucking 24/7. Sure, you might box a bit and sell some krono here and there, but what are you pulling each month? $300? $400?. And not only is it just the time required to farm krono, it's the fact that demand for krono in a 22 year old game can't be that fucking high to where you have a vast market of people to sell to.