Fidel Castro is dead

khorum

Murder Apologist
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Hahahaha I can see why you're so fucking butthurt.

If the Ostend plan had gone through your ancestors would've been shipped to some plantation in the south, gotten emancipated by Lincoln, moved to Chicago or Detroit, joined the middle-class as steel- or auto-workers, send their grandkids to college, and nowadays they could boast the BEST LIFETIME OUTCOMES OF ANY AFRICANS IN HISTORY.

So sorry the confederates shat the bed on that one too, Lendarios. Cuba could've been a giant Puerto Rico today, instead you're gonna be deported to one of the shittiest shitholes in the world next to Venezuela.
 
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iannis

Musty Nester
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I don't understand what's so fucking hard to grasp.

It also wasn't my statement, it's lithoses.

If you cannot see that an idea was put forward and summarily rejected, but rely only on the initial action and not the entirety of the response... if you're just that devoted to being wrong, then I'm done trying to stop you.

One state is not the United states. Not even five states are the United states. You claim the United states tried to annex Cuba. That is factually incorrect, using your own sources.
 

Lithose

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About investments...

But the truth is that in our country it was not only the land that was
the property of the agrarian monopolies. The largest and most important
mines were also owned by those monopolies. Cuba produces, for example, a
great deal of nickel. All of the nickel was exploited by American
interests, and under the tyranny of Batista, an American company, the Moa
Bay, had obtained such a juicy concession that in a mere five years -- mark
my words, in a mere five years -- it intended amortizing an investment of
$120,000,000. A $120,000,000 investment amortized in five years!

And who had given the Moa Bay company this concession through the
intervention of the Government of the United States? Quite simply, the
tyrannical government of Fulgencio Batista, which was there to defend the
interests of the monopolies. And this is an absolutely true fact. Exempt
from all taxes what were those companies going to leave for the Cubans?
The empty, worked out mines, the impoverished land, and not the slightest
contribution to the economic development of our country.​

I'll respond to the above too, later when I have time to shit on it--but this one I think is a great example of how Castro preyed on people not understand what the hell was going on. The U.S. at the time was luke warm on continuing its nickle mining operations that it had begun all the way back in WW2. The PRIO government, before Batista, negotiated a bunch of deals that Batista followed through on--one was granting tax exceptions for a rehabilitation of the PROCESSING facility in Cuba (Since all the processing was done in the U.S.) During these negotiations the U.S. agreed to purchase X amount for Y years, and actually LOST quite a bit of money on the deal. The recovery of the 120,000,000 actually didn't happen, because the plant was taken over too quickly by Castro, and, as said, the only reason it was really profitable to begin with was the U.S. assurance it would purchase, and the only capital that was flowing in to make it function was from non-profit advocacy by the U.S. government so we could have strategic cobalt reserves and Cuba could have a industry--which again, it something both Prio and Batista wanted. Here is a NYtimes article on it.

Like a hot-blooded Don Juan, the Government makes some extravagant promises when it sorely wants something from industry. But once it gets what it wants, the Government often cools rapidly. To build up its nickel supply during World War II, the U.S. signed at least 28 long-term purchase contracts for nickel, now is trying to wiggle out of every one of them, because there is a nickel glut. The U.S. estimates that it has lost $31 million by paying premium prices for nickel, stands to lose $124 million if it honors all its contracts. Last week a House Government Operations subcommittee, investigating some of these nickel deals, wanted to know particularly why the U.S. cannot cut its nickel purchases and get out of the nickel business by selling its $87 million Nicaro nickel plant in eastern Cuba (current annual production: 52 million lbs., about 11% of the free world's supply). The big obstacle is that the U.S. has contracted to pay steep royalties to Freeport Sulphur Co. for the ore that the plant uses, is even now battling to renegotiate the contract and slash the royalties. Few companies are willing to bid on the plant until peace is declared and a steady stream of ore is guaranteed at a good price. Price Fight. When the Government built the Nicaro plant in 1942, it badly needed ore to feed it. Freeport Sulphur Co. owned a rich ore body just four to eight miles away, and the Government lent $1,100,000 to Freeport to develop the ore. The Government promised to buy at least one-third of Nicaro's ore needs from Freeport through 1968, now gets all of Nicaro's ore from Freeport, pays a royalty of $1.73 per ton, and also pays the cost of extracting the ore. The Bureau of Mines contends that the Government, which operates the mine, should pay only 60¢ to 90¢. Last year Freeport offered to cut the price to $1.24 if the Government would sign an irrevocable contract to buy at least two-thirds of its Nicaro ore needs from Freeport through 1978. General Services Administrator Franklin Floete turned down the offer, called on Lawyer Ira D. Beynon, 62, to clean up the Nicaro dispute. Beynon attacked the chore with vigor. Testified Freeport Sulphur's President Langbourne Williams: "Mr. Beynon began to call us names, to threaten us with congressional investigations. He said, 'You reduce [the ore price] or I'll shut this plant down. We don't need your ore. We've got all the ore we need.' " Then Freeport's Williams did something that widely irritated official Washington and raised many an eyebrow in business circles. He hired an ex-FBI investigator to question Beynon's old friends and associates about his private life as far back as 1926. Beynon testified that the inquisitor asked his friends such questions as "I'd like to know how Mr. Beynon made his money." Williams also checked police records on Beynon, but all he could dig up was a traffic violation. Explained Williams: "It's normal business practice for me to find out all I can about the man I'm dealing with." Yet he admitted that Freeport had never before hired a private eye to track a man. Tears & Profit. Last week Beynon wept openly as he told Congressmen how Freeport had pried into his personal life. Said he: "The contract under which we are buying ore from Freeport is unconscionable, and I am going to do everything I can do to remedy this situation. These kinds of deals destroy confidence." In rebuttal, Freeport argued that it had opened up the ore supply, run the Nicaro plant for the U.S. in World War II, and developed many nickel-production techniques that the Government now uses. But it also profited. Freeport has collected $13.7 million in Nicaro royalties from the Government since 1952, now gets about $3,500,000 per year. More than that, the Government last year made it possible for Freeport to get financing for a huge $119 million nickel-and-cobalt operation, abuilding at Moa Bay, Cuba, near Nicaro. The U.S. did so by signing a contract, which the committee is also investigating, to buy up to 271 million Ibs. of Freeport's Moa Bay nickel at 74¢ per Ib. and 23,835,000 lbs. of cobalt at $2 per Ib. Since then, the nickel market has suddenly softened. As for the Nicaro deal with Freeport, the Government next month will complete a 15-mile railroad from the Nicaro plant to a Government-owned mine that holds 43 million tons of nickel ore, enough to supply the nickel plant for 17 years. The Government can then cancel its royalty contract with Freeport on six months' notice, and it probably will do so unless Freeport slices the price. In any case, the U.S. will be able to supply Nicaro from its own sources, or sell the Nicaro plant. At least two companies are interested: National Lead and Freeport itself. Copyright © 2006 Time Inc. All rights reserved.\


In short, the plant existed because the U.S. paid for it and the U.S. was able to provide the expertise for it, and because the U.S. agreed to purchase it at an inflated price to jump start their industry. In concession for that, because the operation was going to be a money loss for a while, like most large investment outlays? The government gave us a tax break. This is not unusual or any sign of exploitation. In fact, the deal was so fucking bad for us the Senate was pissed off we didn't sell the god damn plant. (Most likely it was kept due to private pressure from both Cuban and American businessman within the US, not from just Batista).

Castro makes it seem like the country which invests the modern equivalent of a billion dollars, pays for the mining, equipment and infrastructure and then agrees to buy it above market price as a for-sure sale--is SOMEHOW the bad guy because the investors were promised a tax scheme that would allow them to recoup their cost in a five year time horizon. He's effectively preying on people NOT knowing what a massive undertaking such businesses are, or the risks involved--which is why most Cuban industry became dog shit after the companies left. The plant was barely profitable and he wanted 25% of the gross--lol, plus 5% on TOP for land. But yeah, Szli, he's got everyone convinced the Americans were the thieves. ;)
 
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Lithose

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The argument was if the United States wanted to Cuba annex Cuba, to wish the answer is yes. A segment of the political organization wanted this. It is there in the written document. They unable unable to actually do it , because they lost the civil war. At the very least, the South wanted to annex Cuba.

Lithose Lithose , Who wrote the Manifesto?

A segment that literally lost a war and was crushed politically, and physically under the boots of the people who opposed this? Do you think this proves your point? (And beyond that...how are you not embarrassed yet? That was a major debate mistep, which clearly showed you don't know your history. The reaction of the U.S. to that document, even physically killing the people who supported it, shows what eventually lead us to the Good Neighbor Policy which even repealed the Plat amendment, which I'd like to add, after it was repealed is when your government ONCE MORE fell into corruption. But holy fuck Lend....You obviously do not know this stuff, at all.)
 
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Lithose

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You realize that the cuba of 175 years ago is a very different thing?

Shit, there were large parts of the CONTINENT that hadn't been incorporated as States yet. Of COURSE the South wanted to annex Cuba. Most of the States that were slated to be coming into existence were not slave states. Slavery needed federal representation. And cuba was very obviously slave territory.

The South is also not "The United States". You insult me, a Fine Southerner, and Lithose, a Damn Yankee, both by equating the Confederate States with the United States. Technically you are completely incorrect, even in the narrow context of that specific point. "The United States" did not ever want to annex cuba. Certain member states of the United States did want that. And they were never allowed to act on that desire. "The United States", in fact, wanted exactly the opposite. To not annex Cuba.

That's like... just completely factually wrong. It's like saying Consensus watches anime so obviously Canada is Potato.

I mean what.

It's amazing--people often use the reaction to that manifesto to argue AGAINST Lend's point. I have never seen someone bring it up in defense of the U.S. wanting to annex Cuba. You'd think a country which literally killed the people who supported that kind of policy making wouldn't be accused of enjoying that policy making--but I guess no fact or sign is too overt for Lend's crazy ideology to subvert!

I mean we haven't even gotten to the good neighbor policy where FDR personally stripped plat out of the Cuban constitution (After which, of course, Cuba fell to two dictators--lol)...But I'm not sure what else the U.S. could do to show it didn't annex or use Cuba as a colony. Lend is ignoring history and literally just making up his own...how do you even reason with that? Fucking scary what decades of tyrannical propaganda can do to someone.
 
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Sebudai

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Anyone know a good doc about all this shit that goes more in depth than just the missile crisis?
 

Szlia

Member
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I'll respond to the above too, later when I have time to shit on it--but this one I think is a great example of how Castro preyed on people not understand what the hell was going on. The U.S. at the time was luke warm on continuing its nickle mining operations that it had begun all the way back in WW2. The PRIO government, before Batista, negotiated a bunch of deals that Batista followed through on--one was granting tax exceptions for a rehabilitation of the PROCESSING facility in Cuba (Since all the processing was done in the U.S.) During these negotiations the U.S. agreed to purchase X amount for Y years, and actually LOST quite a bit of money on the deal. The recovery of the 120,000,000 actually didn't happen, because the plant was taken over too quickly by Castro, and, as said, the only reason it was really profitable to begin with was the U.S. assurance it would purchase, and the only capital that was flowing in to make it function was from non-profit advocacy by the U.S. government so we could have strategic cobalt reserves and Cuba could have a industry--which again, it something both Prio and Batista wanted. Here is a NYtimes article on it.

Like a hot-blooded Don Juan, the Government makes some extravagant promises when it sorely wants something from industry. But once it gets what it wants, the Government often cools rapidly. To build up its nickel supply during World War II, the U.S. signed at least 28 long-term purchase contracts for nickel, now is trying to wiggle out of every one of them, because there is a nickel glut. The U.S. estimates that it has lost $31 million by paying premium prices for nickel, stands to lose $124 million if it honors all its contracts. Last week a House Government Operations subcommittee, investigating some of these nickel deals, wanted to know particularly why the U.S. cannot cut its nickel purchases and get out of the nickel business by selling its $87 million Nicaro nickel plant in eastern Cuba (current annual production: 52 million lbs., about 11% of the free world's supply). The big obstacle is that the U.S. has contracted to pay steep royalties to Freeport Sulphur Co. for the ore that the plant uses, is even now battling to renegotiate the contract and slash the royalties. Few companies are willing to bid on the plant until peace is declared and a steady stream of ore is guaranteed at a good price. Price Fight. When the Government built the Nicaro plant in 1942, it badly needed ore to feed it. Freeport Sulphur Co. owned a rich ore body just four to eight miles away, and the Government lent $1,100,000 to Freeport to develop the ore. The Government promised to buy at least one-third of Nicaro's ore needs from Freeport through 1968, now gets all of Nicaro's ore from Freeport, pays a royalty of $1.73 per ton, and also pays the cost of extracting the ore. The Bureau of Mines contends that the Government, which operates the mine, should pay only 60¢ to 90¢. Last year Freeport offered to cut the price to $1.24 if the Government would sign an irrevocable contract to buy at least two-thirds of its Nicaro ore needs from Freeport through 1978. General Services Administrator Franklin Floete turned down the offer, called on Lawyer Ira D. Beynon, 62, to clean up the Nicaro dispute. Beynon attacked the chore with vigor. Testified Freeport Sulphur's President Langbourne Williams: "Mr. Beynon began to call us names, to threaten us with congressional investigations. He said, 'You reduce [the ore price] or I'll shut this plant down. We don't need your ore. We've got all the ore we need.' " Then Freeport's Williams did something that widely irritated official Washington and raised many an eyebrow in business circles. He hired an ex-FBI investigator to question Beynon's old friends and associates about his private life as far back as 1926. Beynon testified that the inquisitor asked his friends such questions as "I'd like to know how Mr. Beynon made his money." Williams also checked police records on Beynon, but all he could dig up was a traffic violation. Explained Williams: "It's normal business practice for me to find out all I can about the man I'm dealing with." Yet he admitted that Freeport had never before hired a private eye to track a man. Tears & Profit. Last week Beynon wept openly as he told Congressmen how Freeport had pried into his personal life. Said he: "The contract under which we are buying ore from Freeport is unconscionable, and I am going to do everything I can do to remedy this situation. These kinds of deals destroy confidence." In rebuttal, Freeport argued that it had opened up the ore supply, run the Nicaro plant for the U.S. in World War II, and developed many nickel-production techniques that the Government now uses. But it also profited. Freeport has collected $13.7 million in Nicaro royalties from the Government since 1952, now gets about $3,500,000 per year. More than that, the Government last year made it possible for Freeport to get financing for a huge $119 million nickel-and-cobalt operation, abuilding at Moa Bay, Cuba, near Nicaro. The U.S. did so by signing a contract, which the committee is also investigating, to buy up to 271 million Ibs. of Freeport's Moa Bay nickel at 74¢ per Ib. and 23,835,000 lbs. of cobalt at $2 per Ib. Since then, the nickel market has suddenly softened. As for the Nicaro deal with Freeport, the Government next month will complete a 15-mile railroad from the Nicaro plant to a Government-owned mine that holds 43 million tons of nickel ore, enough to supply the nickel plant for 17 years. The Government can then cancel its royalty contract with Freeport on six months' notice, and it probably will do so unless Freeport slices the price. In any case, the U.S. will be able to supply Nicaro from its own sources, or sell the Nicaro plant. At least two companies are interested: National Lead and Freeport itself. Copyright © 2006 Time Inc. All rights reserved.\


In short, the plant existed because the U.S. paid for it and the U.S. was able to provide the expertise for it, and because the U.S. agreed to purchase it at an inflated price to jump start their industry. In concession for that, because the operation was going to be a money loss for a while, like most large investment outlays? The government gave us a tax break. This is not unusual or any sign of exploitation. In fact, the deal was so fucking bad for us the Senate was pissed off we didn't sell the god damn plant. (Most likely it was kept due to private pressure from both Cuban and American businessman within the US, not from just Batista).

Castro makes it seem like the country which invests the modern equivalent of a billion dollars, pays for the mining, equipment and infrastructure and then agrees to buy it above market price as a for-sure sale--is SOMEHOW the bad guy because the investors were promised a tax scheme that would allow them to recoup their cost in a five year time horizon. He's effectively preying on people NOT knowing what a massive undertaking such businesses are, or the risks involved--which is why most Cuban industry became dog shit after the companies left. The plant was barely profitable and he wanted 25% of the gross--lol, plus 5% on TOP for land. But yeah, Szli, he's got everyone convinced the Americans were the thieves. ;)

Reading this it sounds to me the Batista regime and american companies did a pretty good job at fleecing the cuban people and the american taxpayers!
 

Lendarios

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It's amazing--people often use the reaction to that manifesto to argue AGAINST Lend's point. I have never seen someone bring it up in defense of the U.S. wanting to annex Cuba. You'd think a country which literally killed the people who supported that kind of policy making wouldn't be accused of enjoying that policy making--but I guess no fact or sign is too overt for Lend's crazy ideology to subvert!

I mean we haven't even gotten to the good neighbor policy where FDR personally stripped plat out of the Cuban constitution (After which, of course, Cuba fell to two dictators--lol)...But I'm not sure what else the U.S. could do to show it didn't annex or use Cuba as a colony. Lend is ignoring history and literally just making up his own...how do you even reason with that? Fucking scary what decades of tyrannical propaganda can do to someone.

Lets try this.
If I were to say that at a point in time, in the past; the president of the United States, sent a diplomatic delegation in order to negotiate for the annexation of Cuba. At that point in time, a part of the USA wanted to annex Cuba, a part comprised by the president and the southern states.

Would that be a historical accurate statement?

Shortly after, a civil engulfed the USA and the winning side did not wanted the annexation at all.

When the north won the war,it doesn't erase the actions of the presidents prior to that.

There are actually documents where past presidents discuss the annexations, and how it would benefit the USA.
It is a fair assessment that a point in time the USA wanted the annexation of Cuba an actively worked towards it. I don't understand why are you butt-hurt about this.

Also Lithose Lithose , how convenient of you to not mention the coup of 1933, or the 3 other uprisings before it.
 

Lendarios

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no, they didn't. I never claimed they did, just that they wanted to. Puerto Rico, Guam were small enough that they could be controlled military, making their annexation an actual possibility and reality after the 1898 war. I personally think Cuba was too big to be controlled military, plus the locals at the time would have rebelled at a full blown annexation. Also back at the US, there was backlash against it.
Funny how the Puerto Rican annexation went through.
 

TrollfaceDeux

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no, they didn't. I never claimed they did, just that they wanted to. Puerto Rico, Guam were small enough that they could be controlled military, making their annexation an actual possibility and reality after the 1898 war. I personally think Cuba was too big to be controlled military, plus the locals at the time would have rebelled at a full blown annexation.
but they didn't annex it.
 
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khalid

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Whether or not we wanted Cuba as a state, there is no doubt that IF WE HAD MADE IT A STATE it would be tons better off right now.
 
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khorum

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Reading this it sounds to me the Batista regime and american companies did a pretty good job at fleecing the cuban people and the american taxpayers!

Maybe you could point us to one of these successful marxist-leninist countries to move to then.
 
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Titan_Atlas

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Maybe you could point us to one of these successful marxist-leninist countries to move to then.

It's only because Marxism has never been done correctly in a post industrial society. Join together brothers and exalt in enlightened equality, multiculturalism, the abolition of classes, and FREE FUCKING STUFF!!!!
 
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Lithose

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Reading this it sounds to me the Batista regime and american companies did a pretty good job at fleecing the cuban people and the american taxpayers!

Well, that's what private industry does, right? The Cuban people wanted their mines working and the infrastructure built on their land (Rather than letting the U.S. process it), the Americans wanted a stockpile of Cobalt and Nickel because WW2 shortages scared the shit out of them. They both got what they wanted, right? And the Cubans and Americans invested in the company both made quite a bit of money; but it wasn't some plot by the U.S. to colonize or control Cuba, and in fact Cuba made off with the lion's share of the profits from it. Yes a lot of it went to the Cuban Oligarchs--but those Oligarchs only gained real political power AFTER the U.S. agreed to repeal the Plat Act and took less of a role in fostering Cuba's democracy (Which failed less 2 decades after we stopped intervening. Failed AGAIN, I should say, since we had already propped it up after previous failures and provided security so they could have free elections.)

Say what you will about the U.S., but it takes a pretty brazenly disingenuous argument to say countries were exploited under FDR's good neighbors policy. We often bent over backwards to ensure good relations in the hopes of being more benevolent than other powers so people would like us--it was like Obama times 10000, we really were doing everything Liberals say "if we just do this, everyone will like us!" Want to guess what happened? We gave people billions on the promise of sharing the resources and they stole it, and fucked us over. Which we tolerated, actually--we tolerated tons of nationalizations. Until the Russians showed us they weren't going to constrain themselves with this 'good guy bullshit' and Kissinger used incidents like this to advocate for his policies in response.
 
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Chukzombi

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no, they didn't. I never claimed they did, just that they wanted to. Puerto Rico, Guam were small enough that they could be controlled military, making their annexation an actual possibility and reality after the 1898 war. I personally think Cuba was too big to be controlled military, plus the locals at the time would have rebelled at a full blown annexation. Also back at the US, there was backlash against it.
Funny how the Puerto Rican annexation went through.

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edko

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Another boat full of Cuban refugees landed down here today. Maybe they didn't get the memo Castro died.