Final Fantasy VII Remake

13 and 13-2's combat system was turn based, it just looked more action-combat during the animations than other FFs. The combat being auto-attack for the win is really just the same tactics that have been employed in rpgs forever. You try different attacks and spells until you find out what works the best on a type of mob, then you abuse that weakness every time it comes up or when you outlevel/gear it you just melee power through for the win. 13 did the same stuff, it just automated the "always use best attack" part instead of going through menus. Once you find an attack that is absorbed or nullified or whatever, the AI stops trying attacks with the properties that didn't go through, and tries other stuff until it finds what works. Same process that gamers generally go through in rpgs, just with less micromanagement.

Personally, my beef with 7/8/10/13 is how little equipment modification you can do with your characters. One weapon/type per character, and usually only 1-3 slots of non-weapon gear. If they revamp that aspect to include more stuff (and make it visible. After FF14 and making every piece of gear including rings show up on the avatar, in an mmo? Make my rings show up in higher graphical quality single player games!) instead of just being a slot for all the materia with a random bonus, that would be cool.

I really liked the combat gambits from 12, even though you could definitely automate for the win completely with little effort. Especially in the Zodiac version, as they give you access to all the gambits right out the gate. If they rework the system to incorporate some of that functionality to whatever character you aren't currently controlling, it could improve the cinematic quality a bit. But maybe not to the same level such as FF13 where it completely automates your actions and removes control from non-main characters. Like if you aren't directly controlling Barret, he will shoot his gun without being told to. Or Aeris casts healing spells on the group without input if they get inflicted with poison or something. Things like that. If you haven't played 12, I would fire up an emulator and give it a whirl just to see the gambits and how much control you have over characters. It was pretty powerful.

I don't know how anyone could like the 13, 13-2, or 13-3 story, but it might just be my blind bitterness and hatred for what they did. The villain in 13-2 looked like he belonged in an 80's glam rock band and the time travel stuff was absurd. I did like the environments though.

At least he was better than the last boss of FF13............................................

The more recent FF's just make me feel like I am playing an MMO solo with a group of really bad group mates that just don't do what you tell them to and you really cant change it but you are stuck with em- and you just forget about them and focus on yourself...

Although I am not a good source... I only got to "the wall" in FF12 and that was the first fight that made you not just run dumbfaced into the fight and I cant get past it because well... I suck.

Turned Based Combat cannot work anymore. I guess this game does not hold up:


This thread is fucking full of raving morons.

Noodlemod_sl said:

13, 13-2, and 13-3 all had the worst combat systems in the entire franchise. Pokemon was ok in 13-2 until you realized chocobos were the kings of everything. 13-3 was just laughable. What really bugged me about 13 was there wasn't really any decision making needed beyond switching paradigms, just auto-attack. If they put that auto-attack bullshit into VII I will be so pissed.

Click to expand...

the biggest offender of 13s combat system was that you had no control at all where your characters would go on the battle map which lead to characters wandering around to places where you don't wanted them to be ie someone is being targeted by an AOE ability and ofc s/he wanders right into the rest of the party to make sure that everyone got hit

Sidian_sl said:

13 & 13-2 combat wasn't that bad besides the whole auto attack most of the game. Doing the whole rav/rav/com to quickly stagger an enemy, then switching to rav/com/com while you just juggle the mob in the air got a little dull. Felt like they could easily keep a 13/13-2 style of battles (aka flashy and characters move fluently) but still keep the whole attack/magic/special/item ATB from 7.

Click to expand...

it got even easier if you had a combo running of SAB/RAV/RAV, the Saboteur would keep the chain up and perma stunning mobs with debuffs thrown inbetween the stuns while the Ravagers just killed everything

Rezz_sl said:

13 and 13-2's combat system was turn based, it just looked more action-combat during the animations than other FFs. The combat being auto-attack for the win is really just the same tactics that have been employed in rpgs forever. You try different attacks and spells until you find out what works the best on a type of mob, then you abuse that weakness every time it comes up or when you outlevel/gear it you just melee power through for the win. 13 did the same stuff, it just automated the "always use best attack" part instead of going through menus. Once you find an attack that is absorbed or nullified or whatever, the AI stops trying attacks with the properties that didn't go through, and tries other stuff until it finds what works. Same process that gamers generally go through in rpgs, just with less micromanagement.

Click to expand...

you don't had to try for anything, just cast Libra on a monster and from then on your auto attacks and party members will automatically use the best spells against that monster

hodj_sl said:

See also this image from the upcoming Dungeon Travelers 2 for the Vita for an elucidation of this topic

Spoiler

Click to expand...

I don't think anyone said that turn-based can't work, just that groups of characters standing across from each other waiting on ATB bars to fill would seem a little archaic. For example, if when you aren't selecting an attack, your character would "look" better if it was actively doing something. Think the spread out combat deals that occurred in The Last Remnant. When they weren't doing something actively, they were clanging weapons and shit so that they looked more active. Still completely turn based, but it gave more to the illusion. Since SE basically said "yes we are changing stuff, deal with it" in their release, I would imagine combat is the thing they are taking the most look at.

If only 13 and the sequels didn't do so well. Oh wait, compared to earlier releases they did shit! 13 sold pretty well (5m+ on ps3) but the sequels did quite a bit worse. Hopefully SE at least looks at 12 and 10 to get their new ideas from, because those games were definitely mechanically superior. And financially, really. 8m for X and almost 6m for 12. 7 sold almost 10m while 8 did almost...8m.

So, looking at their financial gains to be had, they would do pretty well by at least working within the confines of pre-13 games, meaning a better overall combat system (even if I personally didn't mind the combat in 13)

edit: Tarun -

Yeah, libra works the same as any scanning spell in any game, so it autoconfigures the AI much like using it would auto-configure your average rpg'er to use the weakness. Again, it isn't even changing steps used, it simply automates what we as min/maxing gamers would already do 99.99% of the time. It is one of the reasons why I like Dragon Quest's parameters much more than the elemental weakness stuff from FF. The best way to deal with a mob is simply the best until you get better ways to do so. Instead of just being Fire-whatever being the solution to mobs weak against fire, forever.

Yeah sqeeniux has some sense, its mostly been pushed down and sequestered in their 3rd tier production teams (thanks for Mystic Quest!) but 4 heroes of light and bravely default should have shown them what they can get... and even in the BD follow up they stated that they are going to focus more on story than battle system.

So really the indi games and hand helds have been getting the really imo good RPG's ... its also a shame that the Lunar Silver Star Story remake was regulated to PSP - it would have been awesome to get another full real remake for consoles of that game- to me Lunar is the perfection of JRPGs it hits every "standard" and excels at it and does it so well the "generic" is no matter and there is enough uniqueness on it that it really is a textbook of what a RPG should be- every generation should have a perfect remaster remake of that game.

hodj_sl said:

What was said is that they won't sell the sorts of large numbers of retail copies Sqeenix desires, and that's simply true.

Click to expand...

There is zero evidence to support this statement. In fact, Rezz just posted evidence to the contrary. FFs sporting turn based, all your characters stand in a row, combat have sold way above their more active combat counterparts.

But go ahead and double down on your bullshit.

Square is gonna get blasted regardless of the outcome. If it's nothing more than a facelift it'll satiate the appetites of its rabid fanboys, but it'll be met with universal excoriation at worst and "hey, I loved this game 20 years ago and it's still pretty good" at best among critics.

If they infuse the same base material with modern innovations and create a game that could possibly make for an objectively better game, it'll more or less reverse the reception from the two parties.

Of the two, option 2 is the sounder play, because let's face it - the fanboys are gonna buy it regardless and a fresh rendition of a dated masterpiece is more likely to garner new fans than a fresh coat of paint.

hodj_sl said:

Besides the fact that JRPGs sell like absolute shit nowadays and no one has been making them for modern systems for two generations now, sure, there's zero evidence to support this statement.

Really, sales of JRPGs has been down for close to a decade.

Click to expand...

And the turn based combat has largely been dropped during that time, so you are supporting the opposite of your point. Do you know how evidence works?

hodj_sl said:

Besides the fact that JRPGs sell like absolute shit nowadays and no one has been making them for modern systems for two generations now, sure, there's zero evidence to support this statement.

Really, sales of JRPGs has been down for close to a decade.

Click to expand...

Maybe on couch consoles but JRPG sells and is made in large quantities for DS/3DS for a while now. Seriously the DS is in the same conversation as PS2 and SNES for having the greatest RPG library and 3DS is just behind those major players.

hodj_sl said:

Sales declines began while turn based combat was still the norm. The changes to turn based combat to more action was what these companies did to try and fix that situation. Do you understand how cause and effect works?

Click to expand...

Changing the combat system did not remedy the decline so the effect was what exactly?