Final Fantasy XIV (Guide in first post)
- Thread starter Guzrog
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Malakriss
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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There's a minimal population among the top guilds who are clearing turn 4, most will be relying on 1 and 2. 1-4 only yields 6 total pieces of allagan each week, meaning less than one per member of the raid.
Mythology bought pieces are entering the system faster than allagan, but even that is still time locked.
Mythology bought pieces are entering the system faster than allagan, but even that is still time locked.
I'm actually surprised nobody is really discussing how strange and problematic it is for the game to have launched with content that's a tier above what is being introduced later. It'd be like WoW TBC launching with Serpentshrine Caverns accessible and then introducing Karazhan after a few months. It's bound to cause a slew of problems and piss off a lot of people, and it really skews the PvE competition. A huge part of a game's success is the perception of possibilities, and for the same reason that it's important for an MMORPG to have an endgame with depth even to players who don't actually reach it, it's also important to preserve the integrity of the gameplay.
I really feel this has been compromised by putting the raid tiers out of order. Those who didn't raid Binding Coil for the first two months will probably feel that the Crystal Tower progression is unsatisfying because of the constant reminder that others are already ahead of it and/or are facerolling it by outgearing from the start, and those who did raid Binding Coil for two months will feel that there's no relevant content because the new raid is a step back in the progression hierarchy. Launching with BC is basically going to end up disappointing both those who did it and those who didn't, for different but equally valid reasons. One side's progression is rendered meaningless because it isn't cutting edge no matter how quickly you clear CT, and the other side's progression is further delayed until they release whatever content comes after BC in the tier order.
Players should not be expected to just ignore the fact that some have leapfrogged the content, because BC was not intended to be doable by the common player and so isn't something a guild can be expected to have cleared in preparation for CT. Some will (and have) argued that raiders who didn't clear BC should just not care that others did because it doesn't affect them, but it does. It completely voids PvE competition and it destroys the feeling of accomplishment when you know others cleared BC long ago or were able to clear CT without breaking a sweat because they brought ilvl90 gear to ilvl80 content. FFXIV will completely lack a cutting edge raid community because they've fucked up the thing that makes people care and compete. Hardcore raiders will lose interest because they have to wait until the tier after CT to get actual progression content, and normal raiders will lose interest because the content will be old and done before they even reach it.
I can see no possible reason for doing it the way S-E did. Aside from tampering with the order, it doesn't even make sense that the tier after the 24-man raid is an 8-man raid. It fucks with everything, most notably guild raid teams. Anyone who has been in a raid guild can see how problematic it's going to be to have to transition a 24-man raid team into a whole tier of 8-man content. The 8-man raid should have been the first one, like Karazhan, and then it should expand into 24-man raid content with the occasional smaller 8-man side thing for variety and smaller guilds. I find myself saying this suspiciously often, but it really is just yet another sign that the developers haven't got the slightest clue about how MMORPGs work under the hood. This whole game is like imitation without understanding, like when a child parrots the lyrics to a song without knowing the meaning.
I really feel this has been compromised by putting the raid tiers out of order. Those who didn't raid Binding Coil for the first two months will probably feel that the Crystal Tower progression is unsatisfying because of the constant reminder that others are already ahead of it and/or are facerolling it by outgearing from the start, and those who did raid Binding Coil for two months will feel that there's no relevant content because the new raid is a step back in the progression hierarchy. Launching with BC is basically going to end up disappointing both those who did it and those who didn't, for different but equally valid reasons. One side's progression is rendered meaningless because it isn't cutting edge no matter how quickly you clear CT, and the other side's progression is further delayed until they release whatever content comes after BC in the tier order.
Players should not be expected to just ignore the fact that some have leapfrogged the content, because BC was not intended to be doable by the common player and so isn't something a guild can be expected to have cleared in preparation for CT. Some will (and have) argued that raiders who didn't clear BC should just not care that others did because it doesn't affect them, but it does. It completely voids PvE competition and it destroys the feeling of accomplishment when you know others cleared BC long ago or were able to clear CT without breaking a sweat because they brought ilvl90 gear to ilvl80 content. FFXIV will completely lack a cutting edge raid community because they've fucked up the thing that makes people care and compete. Hardcore raiders will lose interest because they have to wait until the tier after CT to get actual progression content, and normal raiders will lose interest because the content will be old and done before they even reach it.
I can see no possible reason for doing it the way S-E did. Aside from tampering with the order, it doesn't even make sense that the tier after the 24-man raid is an 8-man raid. It fucks with everything, most notably guild raid teams. Anyone who has been in a raid guild can see how problematic it's going to be to have to transition a 24-man raid team into a whole tier of 8-man content. The 8-man raid should have been the first one, like Karazhan, and then it should expand into 24-man raid content with the occasional smaller 8-man side thing for variety and smaller guilds. I find myself saying this suspiciously often, but it really is just yet another sign that the developers haven't got the slightest clue about how MMORPGs work under the hood. This whole game is like imitation without understanding, like when a child parrots the lyrics to a song without knowing the meaning.
Intrinsic
Person of Whiteness
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I don't have a single clue what you just wrote or who you thought should be pissed off about CT being a tier below BC. Hopefully somewhere in there the point was that current raiders should be mad because we've been doing BC so long that no new content is coming out for us to do. What it seems like you said is that the casuals should be pissed of because they're getting an extra raid tier to do before BC, but their feelings will be hurt because some other have already been doing BC and won't care about their CT accomplishments?
If you can't comprehend how it can be problematic to launch a game with tier 2 in place and then release tier 1 later, you're not the target of my post.
Intrinsic
Person of Whiteness
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No no, I'm with you man and understand it as a problem (and being completely stupid). But it seemed like you post was stating the problem was derived from it negatively impacting a group of players that had not even started BC (Tier 2).
That part is what threw me for a loop. Having Tier 1 in place now should only be a boon for these people who have not started raiding BC, not unsatisfying. Those people will be reminded there are people ahead of them because there will always be people ahead of them CT, Tier 1, Tier 0 regardless. The rest of the paragraph I understand.
Because perception is half of the appeal of raiding, and if you have to start raiding CT knowing that the content you'll be progressing to afterwards has already been cleared and is now on farm status by other raiders, it takes away a lot of the satisfaction. The same problem existed in WoW TBC where a new guild couldn't really skip raid tiers like you could in later expansions, you had to work your way through the whole thing to get to the currently relevant tier, but peoplehatedraiding something that was rendered competitively irrelevant by the fact that even the next tier was just farm content for other guilds. It's why Blizzard decided to make shortcuts to the latest tier in WotLK and onwards.
Crystal Tower will be released already sort of obsolete because the tier after it is currently being cleared, and that will make it a lot less interesting to raid even for those who haven't been clearing Binding Coil, and even moreso for those who have. There won't really be properly aligned progression until thenextbatch of content after 2.1 because that'll be the first time people are starting from the same point and are actually moving into new, competitive, progression-relevant content instead of backwards into obsolete content that you already outgear or forwards into old content that isn't competitively relevant because it has already been done.
Crystal Tower will be released already sort of obsolete because the tier after it is currently being cleared, and that will make it a lot less interesting to raid even for those who haven't been clearing Binding Coil, and even moreso for those who have. There won't really be properly aligned progression until thenextbatch of content after 2.1 because that'll be the first time people are starting from the same point and are actually moving into new, competitive, progression-relevant content instead of backwards into obsolete content that you already outgear or forwards into old content that isn't competitively relevant because it has already been done.
CT is a casual duty finder raid. Hard mode primals for those of you who are clearing turn 4.
Thengel
Golden Knight of the Realm
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Yeah...the rest of the original post made sense, but this part still doesn't. Sure, there may besomepeople that just can't stand clearing something that's easy for someone else, or breaking into content that someone else has already done...I guess? However, people of that type are far more likely to be looking for a hardcore raiding guild and won't be put in this situation to begin with, or at least not long-term. The problem really did not exist in WoW TBC - I know because I was in one of those mid-tier raid guilds. We were perfectly happy working our way through content, in order, despite the fact that others had already done it. Likewise we were doing BWL while others were in AQ, we did AQ and never even got to Naxx. In Everquest there were thousands of people perfectly happy farming stuff that the top tier guilds wouldn't have even bothered with.
You not caring doesn't mean nobody did. It was literally announced by Blizzard as the reason they were changing things so people didn't have to work their way through all the previous tiers to get to the current one. A lot of players disliked having to do it and it was a frequent topic of complaint back then. I'm sure it's lovely that you personally had no problem with it, but plenty did. One of the biggest issues with TBC, especially towards the end, was that so few got to the final bits of raid content that it almost became hard to justify developing it, and this was in large part because few cared to grind their way through all the preceding content that was regarded as obsolete by most. The majority doesn't enjoy doing obsolete raid content, that's kind of a self-evident fact. Having a different opinion != disproving an argument.
Yeah the only people with that kind of mentality are the ones in hardcore top-end guilds who only care about it because there are other hardcore top-end guilds to compete with. Honestly that mentality almost completely disappeared for me once instanced raid content became the norm. Either way it's a very very small subset of any MMO population.
Yeah and that's also why WoW is shit tier now (and a lot of other MMOs, even EQ/EQ2 does this now) - making it so everything resets with every new tier and new expansion totally de-values people's time spent and makes them lose connection with their gear and character. This started about mid-way through WotLK. It even de-values the MMO companies own past content and expansions, making them ghost towns.
Having to farm up through all the equipment/expansion tiers in EQ and early WoW to be able to do top end content made it way more satisfying when you finally beat a boss.
WoW fucked it up way before WotLK. Maybe it is worse now but I quit when all my top-end vanilla raid gear was replaced 5 levels into TBC from the Stamina change. I couldn't bring myself to play anymore knowing I spent 100s of hours getting that gear only for me now to be on the same level as anyone else.
That's pretty subjective, but it also wasn't really the point. It's still stupid to have released tier 2 months before releasing tier 1.
Crystal Tower > BC isn't any different than WoW's LFR > Normal > Heroic mode for dungeons during Cataclysm, except with some consistency that the serious stuff is 8 mans and not some 10/25 crap.
Only in your narrow view of "tiers", FFXI didn't have tiers (many concurrent raids and ways to acquire items) and Yoshi-P has never said FFXIV would be using the WoW method of loot tiers.
Coil is a zone for a small team of hardcore raiders, and it will continue to get added turns with added difficulty. Crystal Tower is tuned for the rest of the population who may not have the time/organization to have a linkshell or FC of raiders.
I don't see why these two different things can't co-exist - if you are a hardcore raider then do CT once for the story or for your alts, then don't do it again - you have Extreme mode Primals and more turns of BC coming down the pipeline. Sound's better than WoW's current model of everyone's content is the same with just added hp and damage.
Yes it is different. BC was never intended to be the on-release raid content, the developers themselves said so and opined that almost nobody would be raiding it before 2.1. Devs are always wrong about that sort of thing, but regardless, this is literally a case of tier 2 being released before tier 1. CT was supposed to have been the first raid content, but it wasn't finished and instead they decided to just stick an also unfinished BC in there instead.
Listen, I'm not just making this shit up.Man0warr_sl said:
You're welcome to not have a problem with the way things turned out, but don't try to insist that it was always intended to be released this way. Sometimes I think most of this forum's userbase is just here to disagree with everything for the sake of it.older info about the game_sl said:
cm cutscenes are listed under "instance cutscenes" (or maybe it's dungeon) either way... it works from the inn.