Girls who broke your heart thread

Lithose · Dec 26, 2010

You in law school or something? Because you"ve been told you"re totally wrong a couple of times now by several people and you just lawyered the shit outta this topic.

Actually I have graduated from law school.

And I didn"t mean to lawyerize this conversation. I honestly had no idea that the labeling system for friends was so complex and defined. For me, the "friend zone" just meant everyone that couldn"t get laid but was friends with a girl. I had no idea there were different ladders and ratings for each ladder. I mean, you guys have really studied this shit.

You can come up with whatever defense you want about using the wrong word or whatever, but that"s just the way it is. It doesn"t matter what word you"re using to describe the relationship,the point is that it wasn"t taking place on the friends ladder, it was on the fuck ladder.

You know, these explanations are really so retarded that I can"t help but roll my eyes. However, since 4-5 of you firmly believe in this sub category of fuckable vs friend, I"ll admit my definition was wrong.

It still feels like I"m in the twilight zone though, where everyone else knew this profound truth and I was the only one out in the dark. I guess Sharm was right, I was lucky if this is the first real experience with it but then again, I always broke away from women the second they tried to use me as an emotional douche. So I have only ever existed "low" on the friend zone ladder or on the fuckable ladder. (I think? Still new with this system). Maybe my policies have helped me more than I know.

Dr. Funkenstein_foh · Dec 26, 2010

I"ve never dealt with it because I"ve rarely separated fucking from friendship. I treat new dates like new friends, old partners like old friends, and current friends like friends. If a girl didn"t wanna date/fuck, I figured it was because she...didn"t want to date/fuck. They were all friends, so this whole ladder thing just doesn"t make a whole lot of sense in my context.

Looking back, it applies. However, it seems you don"t know you"re actually in the "friend zone" until you"ve been turned down. It seems more like an after-denial excuse than some hard and fast rule.

FoghornDeadhorn_foh · Dec 26, 2010

Dr. Funkenstein said:
Looking back, it applies. However, it seems you don"t know you"re actually in the "friend zone" until you"ve been turned down.

Oftentimes, yes.

It seems more like an after-denial excuse than some hard and fast rule.

Excuse? "I guess she isn"t into me" isn"t really an attractive excuse. It"s just a way of explaining how a girl can really like you and think of you as a great friend and think of you as a very eligible bachelor and think you"re an attractive man but when she"s single doesn"t want you. Or, of course, think a whole lot less of you than all that and also not be attracted to you. There"s a whole range! I really don"t know how it"s an "excuse" of any kind. Not into you = not into you no matter what the mechanics are. And if it"s someone you really want, it stings either way.

Schezanna_foh · Dec 26, 2010

Lithose, please seethis sitefor a more detailed explanation of what they"re talking about. As has been stated, it"s very accurate.

Erronius · Dec 26, 2010

Schezanna said:
Lithose, please seethis sitefor a more detailed explanation of what they"re talking about. As has been stated, it"s very accurate.

Yeah, Sharmai was quoting directly from it I believe.

Sharmai said:
Originally Posted by Ladder Theory
Many women want to argue this point and say things like " I have lots of guy friends." Maybe. There are exactly 3 cases Intellectual Whores has identified whereby a guy and a girl can be friends:

1. The guy is gay
2. The guy does not find you attractive
3. The guy already has a woman much higher than you on the ladder

Even Nietzsche knew this. Most guys know this intuitively. Most girls doubt. I have a challenge for all of you girls who still doubt. Pick a guy who does not meet any of the criterion on the above list that you think is your friend. Then ask yourself this question: If you were both alone at his place one night, and you excused yourself to the bathroom and came out naked and asked him to have sex with you would he:

1. Tell you he doesn"t want to risk the beautiful friendship you have created with messy physical entanglements.

2. Comply.

Remember
...this only works if you are honest with yourself. Number one is of course something that guys hear all the time. Intellectual Whores refers to it as the Kiss of Death. It is more likely that he will jump you eagerly.

long:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:Of course I don"t agree with this 100%, but my quibbles are minor. For example, I do have some smoking female friends who are in relationships, both marriage and dating. I hold those establishments in pretty high regard, and I"m adamant that I"m not the kind of guy that breaks up relationships. Even if one of my female friends were to come on to me, no matter how hot, I"d turn it down. And this isn"t idle chatter either, I"ve actually had women like this, women I was friends with, decide for whatever reason that I was a good idea. I admit it"s partially because I"d hate to be cheated on, partially because I find one (or both) people in that relationship to be good friends and wouldn"t risk the friendship, and partially...because it"s kinda fucking creepy. I know a lot of guys would disagree and jump at the chance to bang some of my female friends, but /shrug. At most, point number 3 might have something to do with it, if worded differently. It isn"t that I do or do not have a "better" woman, rather, I see it as though there are a lot of women out there, and it isn"t worth the drama to get involved in a situation like this when you can just go meet someone else.

At least I can deal with it when the woman is in a relationship, I put her on a "friends" ladder by default ( does that mean I have two ladders? Maybe). As far as single women, I have to admit that usually I"m not friends with a woman I wouldn"t be willing to sleep with, usually the women in question are at least "decent". And as far as getting made into a "cuddle bitch" (that made me lol), anymore if I run into that I stop letting myself be drawn in. I"ve had several instances where I"ve driven home and decide that once is enough, fuck that, and I start distancing myself. This has resulted in sex/relationships a couple of times, but usually that ends a friendship.

What is most offensive to me though, is what seems to often be unspoken in all of this. If *you* are on the friends ladder, that means that you have a front-row ticket to observing all of a woman"s (or girl"s, as is often the case) juvenile antics and drunken debauchery, while having to listen to her repeated complaints about shitty guys when it"s her own fault for dating douchebags. And that is bad enough, if you are to forever be on the friends ladder. What I hate is when at some point the woman in question will suddenly pull her head out of her ass, think about all the restraining orders and liver damage, and shift her criteria for men. Suddenly many of the guys on the friends ladder, who she never would have considered as potential partners without a shift in standards, find themselves moved to the other ladder. I actually find this somewhat insulting, in a"you expected me to hang around and make myself available to you as a friend while you were out contracting STDs; in short, at the time I wasn"t good enough. Now, years later, you suddenly want to start going out to the movies and trying to spark a romance?". often it"s seemed to have been at a change of stages for some women I"ve known. I"m older, I"ve largely gone through my party/drinking/drugs/whore stage, but when some of these women reject men, they want to keep men in the friends ladder as backup so to speak. For the attention or what, it doesn"t matter. Some seem to think that putting guys they aren"t attracted to on the friends ladder means that they aren"t a superficial whore so to speak, or that it will prevent guys from thinking she"s a bitch of sorts. But when they suddenly want to start a family or at least get away from what they should have been finished with in their early twenties, they expect to be able to call me and forget about all the "friend zone" bullshit AKA"you aren"t good enough to fuck me atm". Suddenly you"re expected to go from ignoring the "innocent" flirting and considering yourself to be some sort of emasculated brother figure, to the guy that she wants to be with. FUCK. THAT. BULLSHIT.

I even know in my mind that this runs counter to the ladder theory and that I shouldn"t expect any differently. I know that for many, that is the opportunity to have the relationship you might have wanted 1 year, 3 years, 5 years prior. But, honestly, I can"t do that. I"ve actually turned many of these women down, and I have never been able to explain the situation, even when they really want to understand and are trying to grasp why I just told them "no". I"m sure part of it is a power thing (years of being lower on the ladder perhaps, and suddenly my stock rises, and I can show them how it feels). Part of it though really seems to be a backlash from what I feel is a woman being inconsiderate in a fashion, treating a man as though he IS gay, or in a sense puts you in a position to be "cuckolded" (not literally in any event, but you as a man are expected to be supportive of a woman"s banging other guys). I"ve had endless frustrating arguments with single female friends who don"t, and probably never will, "get it". They really don"t see what is wrong with leading men on, or trying to maintain a stable of "guy friends" so they have a steady source of cock should man #1 leave the picture. I"ve had some emotional "WTF" moments with some women over this, and things have come to a screeching halt with them in tears, me feeling angry and offended, and unable to explain to them why I wont consider a relationship with them. A couple of times we"d have drinks and suddenly it"s no longer "friends", which actually isn"t too bad if in the morning it"s"crap, neither of us wants a relationship...let"s not mention this again and go back to being friends". By this point though, I guess I"ve marked the woman off of my"willing to put up with her shit in a relationship"ladder, have sex, and then they"re mystified when I tell them that in no way, shape or form am I looking for a relationship with them.

To me all this could be avoided, if a woman would just say"You know, I"d date you in a heartbeat if I wasn"t in a relationship, and I want to be friends with you because I dig you a lot. If I"m single, you and me are going to paint the town red". But when women treat men as "friends" and nothing more, it"s...well shit, it pisses me off to no end because the unspoken message is "I don"t want to fuck you", and honestly changing that at a later date out of the fucking blue seems pretty fucking manipulative. And even though I"ve cockblockedmyselfin this regard, it has felt HELLA good to tell a woman basically"You"re the one who wanted to be friends, and nothing more, so that"s how it"s going to be. If you wanted me as anything else, you should have said so X years ago"

I rambled on a bit, for which I apologize. I wish I could put it into words better, at least to women in general, because I really think there is a complete and total difference in how men and women see these things.

FoghornDeadhorn_foh · Dec 26, 2010

I actually find this somewhat insulting, in a "you expected me to hang around and make myself available to you as a friend while you were out contracting STDs; in short, at the time I wasn"t good enough. Now, years later, you suddenly want to start going out to the movies and trying to spark a romance?" . often it"s seemed to have been at a change of stages for some women I"ve known. I"m older, I"ve largely gone through my party/drinking/drugs/whore stage, but when some of these women reject men, they want to keep men in the friends ladder as backup so to speak. For the attention or what, it doesn"t matter. Some seem to think that putting guys they aren"t attracted to on the friends ladder means that they aren"t a superficial whore so to speak, or that it will prevent guys from thinking she"s a bitch of sorts. But when they suddenly want to start a family or at least get away from what they should have been finished with in their early twenties, they expect to be able to call me and forget about all the "friend zone" bullshit AKA "you aren"t good enough to fuck me atm". Suddenly you"re expected to go from ignoring the "innocent" flirting and considering yourself to be some sort of emasculated brother figure, to the guy that she wants to be with. FUCK. THAT. BULLSHIT.

Fucking word to that, man. I haven"t had it happen to me personally but I"ve seen it in various stages and I"m really just waiting for it to turn around somewhere on me, and I reckon I"ll have largely the same reaction. I"m not your consolation prize or fucking retirement package.

Mippo_foh · Dec 26, 2010

I have quite a few female friends that are very attractive that are just friends. I am also quite attracted to some of them, and it still doesn"t change anything. I know it might come as a shock but personality matters for some people. None of them would just walk out of the bathroom naked but hypothetically speaking if it ever did come up that they wanted to have no-strings attached friendly sex I wouldn"t exactly turn it down because I enjoy sex, not because I deeply want some relationship with them.

Secondly, there actually ARE benefits to simply being friends with attractive females because they usually have 1) attractive friends that you aren"t friends with and you start out at an advantage with their friends because they"ve already talked you up and 2) it makes it easier to pick up girls when you"re out if you are with attractive girls and some will even help you and call the girls over themselves.

The point being that there are some people out there like myself that can do it and it works perfectly fine. The main reason being is that even though I"m attracted to them, their personalities are not what I am looking to date so I"m not interested in being anything more then friends.

FoghornDeadhorn_foh · Dec 26, 2010

Mippo said:
I have quite a few female friends that are very attractive that are just friends. I am also quite attracted to some of them, and it still doesn"t change anything. I know it might come as a shock but personality matters for some people. None of them would just walk out of the bathroom naked but hypothetically speaking if it ever did come up that they wanted to have no-strings attached friendly sex I wouldn"t exactly turn it down because I enjoy sex, not because I deeply want some relationship with them.

Secondly, there actually ARE benefits to simply being friends with attractive females because they usually have 1) attractive friends that you aren"t friends with and you start out at an advantage with their friends because they"ve already talked you up and 2) it makes it easier to pick up girls when you"re out if you are with attractive girls and some will even help you and call the girls over themselves.

The point being that there are some people out there like myself that can do it and it works perfectly fine. The main reason being is that even though I"m attracted to them, their personalities are not what I am looking to date so I"m not interested in being anything more then friends.

Thank you for your insight. I was unaware of the following until you posted:

1) I don"t have to want a relationship with someone to want to fuck them
2) Women make great wing(wo)men
3) Personality is something I should consider when deciding whether I am interested in someone for sex, would potentially be but would prefer to keep them as a "friend" for whatever reason, or want to date them

A+ contribution etching in bronze above my bed jesus what a revelation amen.

Mippo_foh · Dec 26, 2010

Eomer said:
What are people"s opinions on how much is too much in terms of seeing someone when first starting out in a relationship? Just kinda curious. Obviously it changes from situation to situation, but just in general terms.

I hung out with Jill, the new girl, last Tuesday, Saturday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. We were gonna hang out a bit last night but she"d just started her new placement as a nurse, people didn"t show, and she ended up working 16 hours and only had 8 before her next shift. We"re supposed to hang out tomorrow, assuming nothing goes sideways at work, and possibly Tuesday for another hockey game (haven"t brought it up yet).

Doing my best to not repeat past mistakes of coming on too strong or getting in touch too much. Typically I"ve been letting her initiate text convos, and trying to keep my responses short, and from what I can tell she does seem in to me.

However I also spoke at length with my buddy about the initial screw up with him going out with her while I was out of town, and it has definitely made me less willing to take her at face value as she basically played the two of us, pretty much exactly how a dude would have tried to play two girls that were friends with each other. She didn"t do anything wrong per say, but it made me realize she"s not nearly as innocent, naive and sweet as I thought she was.

There isn"t anything wrong with it but I"d let her dictate it as opposed to you doing it. Let her set up the plans and if she is really interested she will want to hang out when available and that basically lets you off the hook because she can"t exactly feel smothered if she is the one instigating everything and as long as you aren"t feeling smothered either it"s gravy.

If a girl is really into you she will make time for you and make herself available to you. If she starts blowing off her friends to hang out with you then you know she is really into you. I"m not saying that"s necessary as some girls will keep their plans and hang out with their friends and that doesn"t mean she isn"t into you, but if she had existing plans and canceled them or she invites you to hang out with her and her friends, then it"s definitely a good sign for you.

Big Phoenix · Dec 26, 2010

FoghornDeadhorn said:
Thank you for your insight. I was unaware of the following until you posted:

1) I don"t have to want a relationship with someone to want to fuck them
2) Women make great wing(wo)men
3) Personality is something I should consider when deciding whether I am interested in someone for sex, would potentially be but would prefer to keep them as a "friend" for whatever reason, or want to date them

A+ contribution etching in bronze above my bed jesus what a revelation amen.

Its a little known fact but Mippo is actually the first man ever to get laid.

Sharmai_foh · Dec 26, 2010

Erronius said:
I even know in my mind that this runs counter to the ladder theory and that I shouldn"t expect any differently. s.

The thing is, is this doesn"t run counter to the Ladder Theory if i read your rambling correctly. When the 3 rules were written he was explaining it from the position of "Why the guy isn"t interested in her" but it is still just as accurate to say "The girl[/b already has aguymuch higher than you on the ladder". This doesn"t mean you as the guy are not fuckable it just means you are lower on the fuckable ladder.

Now there are a couple exceptions to the Ladder theory but not in the way some of you seem to take them. First off there is no jumping from the friend ladder to the fuckable ladder when a women is sane and completely sound of mind. If you are on the friend ladder then you are always screwed.... NOT literally. Second you aren"t automatically in the friendzone because she isn"t currently fucking -YOU-. To determine if you are "friendzoned" ask yourself these questions: 1. Is she single and available and are you the best option?? If she isn"t then stop wasting your time trying to figure out and just look elsewhere. 2. Have you asked her out? No? then ask her out already, remeber the worst that can happen is she says no. If she does say no then she will always say no so stop wasting your time and look elsewhere. Oh you did ask her out? Are you sure she was #1 when you did?

Now what can cause a man to temporarily find himself on the fuckable ladder when he was quite clearly (meaning she said NO) in the friendzone?
1. Alcohol
2. Drugs
3. Brain Damage
4. Emotional instability

First three are pretty obvious but the last one is the one guys often confuse with "ladder jumping" when it really isn"t. You know when she is so distraught over her breakup with Billy the star football player and while crying on your shoulder she gives you a blowjob and confess her love to you? That is emotional instability. When she is sane you are going to be cheated on or left. Or what about if she has been single for awhile and all her friends are getting married and shes been to busy at work to look for a guy but you are always there? Yeaaaa that will last until Joe the plumber from hell bends her over your kitchen table while you are at work and she finds a new "bad boy" who really gets her and is into her.... literally.

Now there are times where if you play your cards just right you can successfully work your way into one of these long term farces of a relationship. You know where you here a women say something "Oh he was a great guy but after 2 years of marriage I just don"t think there was a connection." or "it"s not you it"s me" or "Guy says: Honey why are you always so angry and yelling all the time?" or "Why haven"t we had sex in a month?".

and on and on and on. In these relationships you can make it last long if you can get her to have agree to go out, marriage, or kids but don"t fool yourself, its going to die even if it dies the slow death. We see it all the time and we see how these end all around us so don"t be the guy hanging on to the girl till she gives in because all you are doing is throwing away years of your life to find out she wasn"t really the one.

Remeber when she is back to completely sane and sound of mind that your relationship is going to go straight downhill as she looks for the same type of men had before and that are what she really wants.

Menoman_foh · Dec 26, 2010

Luckily anyone who knows Mippo and his previous incarnations of names for himself on the intronets, knows he"s full of shit about basically anything that comes out of his mouth.

Ladder theory though, is more or less flawless, no guy has ever fucked a girl if they were on the friend ladder.

I do think someone earlier brought up that the ladders can "switch" further into the maturity of the women, but I think it is more of an illusion for being so low on the ladder due to "nice guy" circumstance. Nice guys finish last on the ladders of so many women it"s ridiculous. On that type of womens ladder, being so low can appear and look as if it"s the friends ladder.

In other news, after 4 months of being purposely single after the last 2 ex"s I"ve had turned out to be cheating whores, I"m asking out this cute waitress that my aunt works with at a little mom and pop restaurant.

Maybe soon I"ll have something more to add to this big hooplah of asking women out stories!

Erronius · Dec 26, 2010

Sharmai said:
The thing is, is this doesn"t run counter to the Ladder Theory if i read your rambling correctly. When the 3 rules were written he was explaining it from the position of "Why the guy isn"t interested in her" but it is still just as accurate to say "The girl[/b already has aguymuch higher than you on the ladder". This doesn"t mean you as the guy are not fuckable it just means you are lower on the fuckable ladder.

I realize what you (and the article) says; the assumption is that one is simply wrong as to what ladder they are actually on, and may be on the "fuckable" ladder with more desireable men above them on it. What I am saying, and where it differs, is that prior to a change in a woman"s "parameters" as to partners and friends, so to speak, is that a person might very well be completely unfuckable and solidly in the friend zone. Until said woman changes her metrics, she might very well never consider any of the men on her friend ladder as a potential partner whatsoever, which is where I think what I am saying differs. Instead of being moved up a ladder you"re already on, the change in desirable traits shuffles who is on what ladder and where, completely.

Take for example a woman who spend several years into "bad boys". She plays around, gets in trouble, maybe she pops out a kid or two. Get"s hooked on drugs, and goes downhill.

Now consider her two "ladders". Some clean-cut nerd type might actually turn her stomach, she views someone like that as a weak, spineless shadow of a man, and she"s into what she considers "real men". So she meets a nerdy guy, laughs at him contemptuously on the inside, and knows immediately that she"ll never sleep with him. Ever. Then. fast forward several years, after addiction, drugs, kids, what have you. She wake sup one morning and has a revelation so to speak, and starts looking at the world completely differently. Suddenly her "sex" ladder is completely shot, she sees those men for what they are and off they go, perhaps straight into the abyss w/o even a chance at making it to the friends ladder. Then you have the friends, men that she may have completely thought unfuckable, or undesirable, moving over to the other ladder, by her change of metrics.

The issue with my point is, is if you take the authors position too seriously and literally, a situation like this would mandate that EVERY man be on her "sex" ladder, given that a woman might change her mind of views in a broad sense. He posits that if you ever make it to a relationship, that you were never on the friend ladder in the first place. And the thing is, I"ve known many women who really, truly have changed their view of men in general to an amazing degree over time, to the point that they actually would find themselves attracted to men that they previously wouldn"t touch with a 10ft pole, and would have relegated to the hell of the "friend zone" with no delay. If you take the author"s position in cases like this, then you would have men on a woman"s sex ladder without her knowledge whatsoever. And it"s one thing to say that a man might be on one ladder or another without his knowledge, being that it is a woman"s discretion as to who is on what ladder, or who she finds attractive for what reason. If you say that these men that a woman would never have found attractive in the slightest before had always been on her "sex" ladder, then they are there without HER knowledge even, given her prior standards, and that is completely nonsensical.

Sharmai_foh · Dec 26, 2010

Erronius said:
What I am saying, and where it differs, is that prior to a change in a woman"s "parameters" as to partners and friends, so to speak, is that a person might very well be completely unfuckable and solidly in the friend zone. Until said woman changes her metrics, she might very well never consider any of the men on her friend ladder as a potential partner whatsoever, which is where I think what I am saying differs. Instead of being moved up a ladder you"re already on, the change in desirable traits shuffles who is on what ladder and where, completely.

Ah see but a women"s "parameters" don"t change. What changes is her circumstances. What a women wants is a combination of what she can visually see, hear, know and comprehend in her world and this view is different at 16 as it is different at 20, 30, 40, 50 and so on. But what isn"t different is what she wants. If you were on the friend zone at 16 then you are still on the friend zone at 40. If you were REALLY low on the fuckable ladder at 16 then circumstances may have changed that allowed you to be MUCH higher at 40. The key to solving this conundrum is simple. If you asked her out at 16 and she said no then don"t-waste-your-time. If you are on the fuckable list you are so low on it that finding out would take years and if you aren"t on the list then finding out would occur after you jumped her during a moment of weakness and killed the friendship. It"s a lose lose all the way around.

Let me also quote the section on bad boys and whatnot so you can see why it is circumstances and not parameters that are changing.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Womens rating system - Attraction Breakdown
Physical Attraction/Looks - This is still a big factor in attraction. This is self-explanatory.

Competition - I almost titled this section disinterest. The two are closely related. We can only pursue what runs away from us. A man who is devoted to something else besides the woman is autmatically more attractive. Any intellectual whore who has ever listened to a girl complain about how her boyfriend-ran-off-with-a-slut or how her boyfriend-is-really-not-dumb-he"s-just-streetsmart-and-he- has-to-sell-weed-to-support-his-baby"s-mama or he"s-really-nice-even-though-he-ignores-me-and-hits-me-sometimes-but-you-don"t- know-what-he"s-like-when-we"re-alone or he"s-not-emotionally-available-that"s-why-I-like-talk-to-you-until-it"s-time-to-go-fuck-him while he himself is sitting right there and would like nothing better than to be with her but of course is sitting solidly on the friends ladder knows this intuitively. Ultimately, almost all guys learn this truth for themselves: The best way to never score with a woman is to show too much interest in her.

Women seem to especially like it if you are more devoted to your bad music, biker gang, forearm tattoo or marijuana. These all seem to work wonders. There are some interests you can show in a woman that will help you to fuck her: a healthy interest in destroying her self-esteem and in fucking her friends more than her seem to work wonders. Note that the following topics of disinterest have been field tested and shown conclusively not to work: Unix, literature, poetry, international politics, and sodomy.

Novelty - Let"s face it, if you"re like every other guy who works a normal job and tries to live a good life, you"re probably like just about every other guy. Chicks don"t dig this, and why would they? Who wants someone who is just like everyone else? Something different is more attractive. Like someone who does not have to work during the day like most people because they have lots of money from business or selling drugs. Or like someone who has stabbed a man and went to prison for it. Different and a veritable ticket to getting laid.

Deconstructing money/power
"Power is a great aphrodesiac" - Notorious Asshole and War Criminal Henry Kissinger

"A woman"s test is material. A man"s test is a woman...if a man could fuck in a cardboard box, he wouldn"t buy a house." - Rabbi Dave Chappelle.

It was previously assumed that money was a fundamental unit of attraction to a woman. Further investigation has revealed a better understanding of this very important piece of the woman"s rating system. The piece which was formerly labelled money has been replaced by a money/power paradigm. The two are almost always intertwined in a way that makes them hard to distinguish, so I don"t think it productive to make a chart of how they breakdown exactly. One almost always follows the other in any case.
What is important to know about the money/power piece is that previously it was thought of as static. Now we know that the money/power piece of attraction displays time-variance. That is, the amount of money needed to get maximal "points" in the money category varies according to the age of the woman. When a woman is younger her perspective is different as to what makes a lot of money. As she gets older the amount of money neccessary for full points increases.

For a girl of 16 full points for money might be obtained by having access to a car and beer money. When she is in her early college years, a nicer car and enough money to join a fraternity is probably sufficient. As she advances into her twenties what we consider to be the normal money chart will begin to manifest itself -- that is, she"ll want the richest man she can get.

At no point that we can discern does money ever not become a factor. Take any guy. Take a woman that has that guy. In no circumstance that is known would she not rather have a guy just like that, but with more money. Actually, maybe in one circumstance -- when the guy has enough money to buy her basically everything she wants. This is self-evident, I should think.

Erronius · Dec 26, 2010

Sharmai said:
Ah see but a women"s "parameters" don"t change. What changes is her circumstances. What a women wants is a combination of what she can visually see, hear, know and comprehend in her world and this view is different at 16 as it is different at 20, 30, 40, 50 and so on. But what isn"t different is what she wants. If you were on the friend zone at 16 then you are still on the friend zone at 40. If you were REALLY low on the fuckable ladder at 16 then circumstances may have changed that allowed you to be MUCH higher at 40.

You still aren"t addressing the possibility of an overall, sweeping change. In fact, you are saying that there is NO change, from 16 to 40, which I find completely hard to believe. Sure, what she "wants" may not change (power, influence, stability) but these are largely amorphous ideals. I"m not saying that a woman goes from finding money and power attractive (though I am sure there are some arguments out there for it), but rather her interpretation as for what comprises power or wealth does. Bob might not fit her picture of a powerful, stable or wealthy man when she"s 18, and she might disregard him entirely as a potential partner, regardless of how nice a bloke he really is. But at 35, it"s completely feasible that her idea of which men are powerful, stable or wealthy (or even attractive) may have changed completely over the intervening years.

I"m not sure you and I can continue on with this honestly, considering that we disagree on a fundamental issue.

Sharmai said:
The key to solving this conundrum is simple. If you asked her out at 16 and she said no then don"t-waste-your-time. If you are on the fuckable list you are so low on it that finding out would take years and if you aren"t on the list then finding out would occur after you jumped her during a moment of weakness and killed the friendship. It"s a lose lose all the way around.

I don"t disagree, here, but this has less to do with our debate over ladder categorization and more to dealing with the meat of the matter (lol). This is part of why I said to Kirun to just move on and not stress, if something changes then he hasn"t wasted time or emotions over it.

Sharmai said:
Let me also quote the section on bad boys and whatnot so you can see why it is circumstances and not parameters that are changing.

I already read it FWIW, but he really doesn"t address sweeping changes over time there. Again, he is looking at the ladders as a somewhat static situation at a single point in time, and rather than entertain the possibility of a woman changing her views on men completely, he simply addresses this issue by saying that you were always on one ladder or another, even if you didn"t know it, without the possibility of a woman changing her parameters whatsoever. This completely sidesteps the issue I brought up, and I"m not sure how to further a discussion on it when you and I really come down to a basic disagreement on women changing their views on men and what they find attractive.

This debate aside, I think it would be better for most to simply take it in the simpler form and running with it.

Dr. Funkenstein_foh · Dec 26, 2010

Alpha males never end up on the friends ladder. They"re either on the fuck ladder or thrown off completely. Rarely are they thrown off completely.

Just FYI

Sharmai_foh · Dec 26, 2010

...fast forward several years, after addiction, drugs, kids, what have you. She wake sup one morning and has a revelation so to speak, and starts looking at the world completely differently. Suddenly her "sex" ladder is completely shot, she sees those men for what they are and off they go, perhaps straight into the abyss w/o even a chance at making it to the friends ladder

Ok but see this right here? This doesn"t happen. At least no in the way I think you are trying to get across. The women in this example doesn"t shift friends and fuckables from one ladder to the other. No what she does is shift fuckables from top to bottom and vice versa. But that has always possible and always been ladder supported. If you were already on the fuckable ladder you could always work your way up or fall down. The key here is you have to be on the ladder to move around on it. Even with sweeping changes what she wants is still the same.

Now it is possible that -you- can change your core being. That is to say change every apsect of yourself so totaltly as to be someone else and then if you have changed yourself in all the right ways that that are not what she says she wants. Then and only then could you be on the fuckable ladder. But understand that to change yourself so is like doing what the best of actors do but doing it 24/7, 365. It"s not who you are but being something else and that is just another slow death relationship. Either you"ll give up trying to pretend or she will see through it and want the real thing instead.

And yes I know that people change drastically over their lifetimes but that which is the core you, that which identifies you to all of your friends who haven"t seen you in 30 years, that which reminds your ex"s of why they loved you in the first place, that core part of you doesn"t change. It takes acts of god and supreme will power to change that part of you so completely that the women who once named you friend now names you soulmate. Time just isn"t big enough to do it by itself.

And if you manage it then you"ve worked years to get to a point where the women of your dreams would take you only to die the slow death. It"s lose lose.

Big Phoenix · Dec 26, 2010

Dr. Funkenstein said:
Alpha males never end up on the friends ladder. They"re either on the fuck ladder or thrown off completely. Rarely are they thrown off completely.

Just FYI

You mean douche bags right?

kollos_foh · Dec 26, 2010

Dr. Funkenstein said:
Alpha males never end up on the friends ladder. They"re either on the fuck ladder or thrown off completely. Rarely are they thrown off completely.

Just FYI

thats just not true, a woman will only chase a man for so long until she eventually gives up and targets other alpha males.
from the male perspective: even if you"re the hot shit alpha male and every woman is naturally attracted to you, there is a window of opportunity where you have to make your move. and when it closes, you"re a friend - for now.

Eomer · Dec 27, 2010

I rambled on a bit, for which I apologize. I wish I could put it into words better, at least to women in general, because I really think there is a complete and total difference in how men and women see these things.

I dunno, maybe it"s because I"ve never allowed myself to get friend zoned (not through any conscious decision, I"m just not the kind of guy that girls want to be friends with quite honestly, I am about as emotionally unsupportive as an actual human being can be), but I think some of you guys are giving girls a bit too much credit in terms of whether or not they"re even consciously aware of what they"re doing. And shouldn"t at least some of the blame fall on the guys who allow themselves to be used as intellectual whores? And aren"t people allowed to grow up, mature, realize past mistakes and/or change their mind?

I have had a couple long term friends that have bounced back and forth between just friends and fuck buddies, but I"ve never felt like I was used by them. We were good friends, one since junior high, but in both cases I was never their shoulder to cry on with other dudes. With one we"d screwed around a bit in highschool and in the couple years after it, but never really got in to any sort of relationship. With the other we were initially enemies in junior high but changed to great friends that really respected each other by highschool, and there was always a sexual tension. However I thought she was way out of my league, and really she still is, but for some reason she thinks the world of me and finally after 15+ years we got down to bidness last year a couple times, but due to circumstances like living in different cities, and her having every halfway decent guy in Calgary chasing her, it never went past it. Who knows what the future holds with either?

But in neither case have I felt used, or that they used me any more than I used them. Mainly because I didn"t let them. Grow some balls in your relationships, whether they be with friends (male or female) or romantic, and don"t let yourself be used.

Secondly, there actually ARE benefits to simply being friends with attractive females because they usually have 1) attractive friends that you aren"t friends with and you start out at an advantage with their friends because they"ve already talked you up and 2) it makes it easier to pick up girls when you"re out if you are with attractive girls and some will even help you and call the girls over themselves.

Very much this. And actually two of my best wingmen are the two girls I mentioned above. Both have hooked me up with friends and helped me pick up girls, because they"re true friends and not jealous conniving bitches.

All that said, there IS a lot of truth to Ladder Theory. But like anything else involving people, it changes from one to the next. Some girls might be perfect test cases for Ladder Theory. Most would only exhibit some of the behaviors, and only with guys that let themselves be used in that way. And of course as I said above, people and circumstances change over time and because of significant events.

Nothing is as hard and fast as some of you seem to think it is.

Phoenix said:
Its a little known fact but Mippo is actually the first man ever to get laid.

Yup. And Barry White wrote songs about it.

Girls who broke your heart thread

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