GoT - Is Over, Post Your Drogon Sightings

Astro gonna Astro

Zhaun_sl said:

Astro gonna Astro

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i guess
it all depends on what your POV is. if you are a fan of the starks then yes the red wedding is a MUCH higher WTF moment than Tywin. if you look at the overall storyline of every major character in the series (even events across the seas). then tywin's death was like stirring a giant spoon around the whole continent(s).

I'm not sure it is so much about being a fan of the Starks as much as, well, a man with political enemies being killed in King's Landing isn't very surprising, once Eddard died you knew no one was safe. Whereas the Red Wedding was so crazy and inappropriate, I would call it the higher "wtf moment" of the two.

robb was down and fixing to lose the war, catelyn was a bad advice dispensor. the death of tywin caused a major fucking rift all across westeros. even fucked up shit down in dorne.

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Yeah, Tywin had a larger effect politically, in universe (though it's arguable), but in terms of story telling experience, the red wedding was a much bigger deal.

i will concede the freys killing their guests was a major WTF in regards to the customs of westeros, whereas political figures die all the time, though not usually from their escaped prisoner sons.

hopefully zindan isnt still reading this thread, lol

It's hard to say - I'm firmly on the Red Wedding being a bigger deal, especially to the reader. You lose two POV characters, and the last vestiges of Eddard Stark technically, since they were the ones going after vengeance.

Things carried on like we've come to expect with Cersei after Tywin's death in the book, and even if the realm was better off with Tywin (It was) and even if there are still tons of Tywin plots running around (I'm sure there are) the red wedding still had more repercussions. It allowed the Boltons to come to power, the Freys to demand stupid shit/and to potentially no longer be trusted by fucking anyone - it snuffed out what most people assume is left of a once great house, and created little pockets of token resistance, that ended up spawning Un-Catelyn.

Honestly, Tywin dying had little to no effect except specifically in king's landing. Hell, from what I remember all that Dorne said about it was that they wouldn't have the chance to bring about Tywin's downfall since his son already had. I can think of a few things that Tywin dying will affect, but most are favorable for legitimate people to come to power.

The Red Wedding was bigger, but Tywin's death was huge. Saying "(it) had little to no effect" is fucking wrong, and you should feel bad about yourself, Vex. Just the fact that it brought Cersei into power had a huge impact on everything.

Political impact is one thing, but anyone arguing the WTFitude of Tywin vs. Red Wedding is trolling or an asshole(strocreep). One scene made thousands of readers hurl their books across the room and scream in rage and denial, one featured a midget going to kill his dad.

robb and catelyn's death didnt bother me at all. what bothered me more was them killing robb's direwolf and sewing its head on robb's headless body though the thing that pissed me off about that book the most? was hound running down arya with his axe striking her just like he did with the butcher boy, then the chapter ends. i did literally toss the book across the room cursing it out, then i sent a pm to chaos bitching it out saying wtf didthey bother building up this FM training exposition with jaqen for? his response was "keep reading". when she was still alive i went back to being happy again.

You're a heartless Stark hater.

there are only 2.5 likable starks. one was killed in book1 and .5 was maybe killed at the end of book 5. could care less about bran, rickon, robb, sansa and i actively hated catelyn. arya rocks though. best character of the books. if she gets killed off in book6 i wont ever finish the series.

I found Robb to be more likeable than gullible ass Ned. Of course we don't get too many book scenes with Robb in it, so it could just be a lack of information that makes me like him.

I don't mind Bran as a character once he stops whining about not becoming a knight, but I always skip his chapters because they're so unbelievably boring. They spend almost 3 fucking books just wandering the countryside.

Jon I hated in the books, but he's ok in the show. Arya is the boss. Ned was ok, but so frustrating to read because of how stupid he was. Catelyn is a stupid cunt, and I don't use that word often. The rest are meh.

Adam12_sl said:

The Red Wedding was bigger, but Tywin's death was huge. Saying "(it) had little to no effect" is fucking wrong, and you should feel bad about yourself, Vex. Just the fact that it brought Cersei into power had a huge impact on everything.

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Cersei was already in power before Tywin rolled in (though Tyrion did his best to rout her); he hadn't, as of yet, managed to replace the people on her high council. He was still trying to reconcile peace with Highgarden; the most he did during his "reign" was squelch the rebellion in the North, with help from the Boltons/Freys and that whore of a mother of Jeyne's.

What, besides the RW, has Tywin done that his death undid everything? He was consolidating power and working to get Joff away from his mother (he didn't, but luckily for him Joff died) then he tried to get Tommen away from his mother (he didn't), he tried to get Cersei remarried and out of King's Landing (he didn't), he tried to reconcile with Dorne by letting the Viper get some small amount of vengeance and then "killing" the mountain to appease them (he didn't, and when the mountain died of the poison he sent the skull to Dorne but Doran was not mollified.)

So, really...what did Tywin do, that was so huge that his death left a gaping hole in the story? Don't get me wrong, I love me some Tywin because it seemed like his influence might turn shit around, but other than a hopeful "what could he have done if he had lived" he is another flash in the pan. If we're saying his death is huge because he was actually good for the realm, then yea I'll agree. If we're saying his death was huge because there are probably tons of his plots left to unravel, then I'll agree.

As it stands right now, the majority of what he worked for was for naught, there's no one left to avenge him, as Jamie found his honor, Tyrion was the one who killed him and Cersei is too busy being retarded.

The RW was gigantic, because it threw a shit ton of things into motion. People changed sides, wars started and ended, marriages were made, new alliances formed etc. That was Tywin, but it didn't require his death. What did Tywin's death do other than cut him off from making the realm stable? He wasn't sending men to the wall, the attempts at "peace" were being ignored because he is not well loved...Tywin had played his part.

When Tywin died, can you even remember what happened? What effect did it have *on anyone* beyond, "what might have been"?

If you actually think, there's nothing that his death caused, created or stopped that cannot be solved another way. The realm will have stability, others are working towards it, and that was Tywin's claim to fame.

Admittedly, Tywin was a person to be feared, the name was enough to cause people to quake, so taking him out of the picture might have changed some people's opinions and their actions. But bigger than the red wedding? Mattering more than a few POV chapters after his death? There is no one who wants to seek vengeance for him, no one to pick up his mantle. His death did nothing but stop the 4 chapters of "almost good realm ruling" before Cersei took over again, like she has since near the beginning.

A "what if" just doesn't do it for me, sorry. Considering he was also fostering a good bit of hatred in the north prior to Robb Stark's death, hoping that everyone would fight amongst each other and not be able to defend the realm, then yea, you know. It's better he's out of the picture, because we're going to need some assholes who realize what the fuck is happening in the north is about to steamroll all over their stupid plots.

Also, remember what Varys and Doran both said - they had plans to take Tywin out of the picture already, a good deal of plots required him to die. His death simply came earlier. It changed nothing other than slightly speeding shit along and taking a boss of a character out of the book.

robb was all but done. people were already turning on him. the red wedding happened because thanks to his mom's great advice he basically went there on his knees to beg reconcile with the freys. catelyn even married her brother off, fucking him over too. other than the treacherous act itself, the red wedding only affected the already waning northern rebellion and forever trashed the name of house frey. woopteedoo.

Didn't really dig the fact that Arya had the blade knocked out of her hand so easily. I understand she's young, but that made Sirio's lessons seem pointless

Adam12_sl said:

The Red Wedding was bigger, but Tywin's death was huge. Saying "(it) had little to no effect" is fucking wrong, and you should feel bad about yourself, Vex. Just the fact that it brought Cersei into power had a huge impact on everything.

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I HATE agreeing with you.But you're right. Red Wedding was big, caught me guard as much as Neds death, etc. However, Tywins death affected Westeros more I think. So many people have plans that are undone by it. Basically; it's easier to out maneuver a good poker player than a bad one - meaning that well thought out long plans don't work well versus idiots that don't pay attention(applicable to poker).

More importantly, if his nickname is Ned, why isn't his full name Neddard?

That's not important at all... but(!) maybe Ned was short for Ed in Westeros?