GoT - Is Over, Post Your Drogon Sightings

Lambourne said:

Not sure if I'm understanding you right, but yes I do look at them in TV terms, because that's ultimately what we're watching. There are rules of storytelling and if they aren't followed at least most of the time you end up with a story that the audience finds boring or confusing, or we end up dislking the characters that the writers want us to like.

Nobody wants to read the story of how Luke left everything behind to go destroy the Death Star, only to die in a bar fight on Tattooine. It's something that could happen but it's not a good story.

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i'm just saying in TV shows they paint everyone in black and white. even Batman who is an antihero is still the polar opposite of somebody like The Joker. this show tried to do gray. which worked for a while when they had book material. when they were flying on their own, they shifted everyone to one side. Cersei and Dany went from selfish assholes capable of vicious acts to fucking extreme villains and the starks became loathsome cocksuckers, just not as bad as everyone else. their con game to steal the throne was well played , but it made the audience hate their faces.

source in spoiler

probably bullshit but fun to read from 4chan

Soygen said:

This is just as bad a fanfic as what we actually got.

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Having Cersei parallel Mad King Aerys and then having Jaime kill her at least fits the trajectories of both characters.

Ossoi said:

Jon's identity could easily have helped flesh out an entire season

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I agree that the magnitude of the revelation should have been used to show some character development for Jon and some impact in his relations with just about everyone (not just Dany and Varys). It's true that the show skips almost all of it, which is a shame. Now, saying that the many consequences of the revelation should have taken more space in the story, which I can agree with, is not the same as saying it amounted to nothing in the story as it is, which is simply wrong.

He loved her.
And
She loved him.
But she would never shut up so Jon stabbed her in the heart.

Sam-We need democracy
The end.

Szlia said:

I agree that the magnitude of the revelation should have been used to show some character development for Jon and some impact in his relations with just about everyone (not just Dany and Varys). It's true that the show skips almost all of it, which is a shame. Now, saying that the many consequences of the revelation should have taken more space in the story, which I can agree with, is not the same as saying it amounted to nothing in the story as it is, which is simply wrong.

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It amounted to virtually nothing, other than the Starks semi plotting against Dany (or at least Sansa)...but all of the Starks already had reason to plot against her b/c neither Dany nor Arya likes her in general, and Bran apparently knows everything so he's not doing anything to work against her eventual death. Jon's identity arguably does little to absolutely nothing, because we know Varys would not have supported Dany as a "Mad" version of herself with or without Jon to turn to, as that type of ruler he'd basically been working against from the start "for the good of the realm".

They do the bare minimum to show it affects Dany to any real degree, and purposely show the deaths around her actually are far more impactful to her coming unhinged. You could argue the way it affects her the most is that he has a problem being intimate with her after finding out she is his aunt.

Arbitrary said:

In the books and in the show as well Robb Stark sends out an official decree legitimizing Jon Snow as Jon Stark and releasing him from his duty at the Night's Watch.

The legitimacy of that decree and its implications would do all the same things and it's all right there.

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I thought that was Stannis?

I forgot about Robb doing that, but yeah, he signs it in front of a bunch of his bannermen and gives it to one of the Glovers I think? He was basically making Jon his heir since he thought his brothers were dead, but in the books nothing has happened with it yet. Jon pretty much tells Stannis the exact same thing in the book as he does in the show.

Chris said:

I thought that was Stannis?

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Stannis makes the offer later but earlier Robb just went ahead and did it. That decree never turns up again in the show and has yet to turn up again in the books.

Merrith said:

It amounted to virtually nothing, other than the Starks semi plotting against Dany (or at least Sansa)...but all of the Starks already had reason to plot against her b/c neither Dany nor Arya likes her in general, and Bran apparently knows everything so he's not doing anything to work against her eventual death. Jon's identity arguably does little to absolutely nothing, because we know Varys would not have supported Dany as a "Mad" version of herself with or without Jon to turn to, as that type of ruler he'd basically been working against from the start "for the good of the realm".

They do the bare minimum to show it affects Dany to any real degree, and purposely show the deaths around her actually are far more impactful to her coming unhinged. You could argue the way it affects her the most is that he has a problem being intimate with her after finding out she is his aunt.

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I don't agree with this. Remove the "Jon is a Targ" plot point from the story and Jon is happily in love with Dany even if his sisters don't like her much, Jon does not betray Dany, Jon has zero legitimate claim to the throne, Sansa does not plant the seed of discord with Tyrion. Tyrion does not share the secret with Varys. Varys might prefer Jon, but a lot of people knowing and liking Jon is not of much help. So when the bell tolls, Dany does not burn the city down, because she can actually rule as is. She does not need to be feared. People know and love Jon more than her, Sansa does not like her, Varys will keep a close eye on her, but she can rule, because her claim is not threatened by Jon's lineage, because there is no wedge between her and him (they trust and love each others without reservations), nor between her and Tyrion. She does not feel isolated, she can just take the time to get known and loved like she did several times before.

Now, if you think Dany would have burned the city no matter what, because she is mad, want to avenge Missandei and/or hate the people of King's Landing because they did not overthrow Cersei... I guess we can't agree.

Jon being a Targaryen was the straw that broke the camel's back but goddamn that was such a major plot device for so long only to have it revealed at the 11th hour and cheapen what it actually meant. It felt like an afterthought instead of a monumental plot device.

It could have been much more satisfying even in that timeframe if he had learned of it, kept it a secret, and then survived the undead dragon fire with EVERYONE watching. It would be undeniable and apparent to everyone who witnessed it and could have set Dany's turn in motion in a much more satisfying way. It would have made far more sense for her to fall as quickly as she did because now everyone around her would be questioning her legitimacy out in the open. It would force her to act without much time to contemplate.

What we got was the type of setup and development you expect from a 2 hour movie. Not an 8 season TV show.

Szlia said:

I don't agree with this. Remove the "Jon is a Targ" plot point from the story and Jon is happily in love with Dany even if his sisters don't like her much, Jon does not betray Dany, Jon has zero legitimate claim to the throne, Sansa does not plant the seed of discord with Tyrion. Tyrion does not share the secret with Varys. Varys might prefer Jon, but a lot of people knowing and liking Jon is not of much help. So when the bell tolls, Dany does not burn the city down, because she can actually rule as is. She does not need to be feared. People know and love Jon more than her, Sansa does not like her, Varys will keep a close eye on her, but she can rule, because her claim is not threatened by Jon's lineage, because there is no wedge between her and him (they trust and love each others without reservations), nor between her and Tyrion. She does not feel isolated, she can just take the time to get known and loved like she did several times before.

Now, if you think Dany would have burned the city no matter what, because she is mad, want to avenge Missandei and/or hate the people of King's Landing because they did not overthrow Cersei... I guess we can't agree.

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Again we're just going to have to agree to disagree on what sent her into Mad Queen mode then, because Jon didn't stab her because he knew he was a Targ, he stabbed her because he knew she was not what was best for the world anymore. He never wanted the throne anyways, it was never discussed for him to ever even take the throne by anyone except Sansa, Tyrion, and Varys (with a little Sam throne in). I think the knowledge of Jon as a Targ and rightful heir had very little to do with her burning everyone and going Mad Queen mode. Cersei's refusal to surrender, beheading Missandei, losing Jorah, and losing another dragon were clearly shown in the show to be of far greater concern.

If she cared so much about Jon's right to rule, and it was any sort of heavy contribution towards her going mad, she would have executed him for betraying her by even telling his family the truth. She didn't, still was trying to fuck him and have him rule alongside her. The way they did her descent to madness was bad enough, but there's far more evidence it was over the deaths and losing people to Cersei/Jorah against NK than any anger at Jon for being a potential rightful heir. The only thing his parentage did was hasten Varys' demise, but he would have turned on Dany anyways, for the good of the realm like he did on all the other bad rulers when he originally chose Dany...thinking she was different.

Ossoi said:

This is pretty simple:

Did the issue of Jon's parentage advance the narrative/plot in some meaningful way? Yes.

Could the the same effect on the plot have been achieved by something else entirely different and unrelated to Jon's parentage? Yes.

Did the issue of Jons' parentage have any meaningful effect/impact on him as a character? No

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I think the answer to number 1 is no, not in any meaningful way. At least the way they wrote this season. The things Szilla and others are trying to give it credit for I feel other factors actually were the real driving force behind, and I believe its obvious Varys would "betray" or turn away from Dany regardless of Jon's parentage as soon as she showed her "Mad Queen" side. Not that Varys' death meant anything even when it happened, because he didn't do anything meaningful this season besides send out letters no one apparently received, or try to poison Dany unsuccessfully (if you buy into that theory). He told both Jon and Tyrion what was going to happen with Dany before it happened and neither did anything anyways until after it happened. It's pretty sad actually that Varys could have been removed entirely from this season and nothing would have changed whatsoever.