GoT - Is Over, Post Your Drogon Sightings

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Z

Zhaun_sl

shitlord
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BrutulTM_sl said:
There's a decent Greyjoy or two. Even Theon I don't think of as all bad. Mostly he's just a dumb fuck up who was trying to do what was expected of him, and he does get some redemption in the later books.
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I'm trying to focus on the shows really, I know less about how certain people turn out in the books, like Victarion and such, which is why I put qualifiers on it. Like I think the Bolton's are all scum, but we have only seen the one, and really haven't seen much of the Frey's etc in the show.

I'm not sure I can find Theon redeemable in my eyes.
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chaos

chaos

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I think Theon is an especially tragic figure, even before his unfortunate incident(s). Torn loyalties, wounded pride, and incompetence = The Fall of Winterfell.
 
Grimmlokk

Grimmlokk

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grumblethorn_sl said:
misunderstood rapist.
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Best band name EVER.

As for good and bad families....no. It's not that there's no straight up GOOD or BAD families...you are kicking the football at a goalpost that doesn't exist. There's no fucking GOOD or BAD.

The people with the most noble intentions(Ned, Stannis, Dany) are sentencing so many people to death it's ridiculous. They're "good", and if you are following the story at all you realize that means fucking NOTHING.

Just...just get the fuck over the idea of good and bad. You root for who you like, you root against who your don't like. Get over the idea that someone is right or wrong, good or bad. No one in the story views themselves as the bad guy. There's no lurking darkness driving people to commit evil acts.

The Lannisters aren't evil. The Greyjoys aren't evil. The Targaryen's aren't evil. NO ONE is evil. There is no evil. The Lannisters, Targs, and Greyjoy's aren't even necessarily WRONG. They all work for the betterment of their families, but none of them are doing it out of some evil desire to subjugate the world.

Even the "evil" characters like the Mountain aren't evil in the traditional sense, they're just fucked up horrible people. They're not driven by some power greater than themselves. They are occasionally enabled by more powerful people, but even then their awful acts are "justified" as a means to an end that is the "rightful" path for the kingdom.

I maybe shouldn't have had that last beer...but the point I'm getting at is that the deeper we get in to the series the more obvious it becomes that no one is good or bad. People just are what they are. Sometimes those people have power by birth....that sucks.
 
Z

Zhaun_sl

shitlord
2,568
2
I do agree that Theon doesn't deserve the horrors about to happen to him, and yes, he is a very tragic figure. But he made his bed as well, and had the opportunity to get out or even not get in it in the first place. You reap what you sow, no matter what your house motto is.
 
Chukzombi

Chukzombi

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many historical figures that people call evil or " a monster" also have their fair share of supporters who think their deeds were awesome. in fact many are portrayed as "evil" because the history books were written by the winners and they get to say how that person was really like. no im not talking about Hitler. im thinking more with historical figures from the GOT era. like Henry the VIII or napolean. im convinced that Henry the VII was the basis for Robert Baratheon.
 
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Grimmlokk_sl said:
Best band name EVER.

As for good and bad families....no. It's not that there's no straight up GOOD or BAD families...you are kicking the football at a goalpost that doesn't exist. There's no fucking GOOD or BAD.

The people with the most noble intentions(Ned, Stannis, Dany) are sentencing so many people to death it's ridiculous. They're "good", and if you are following the story at all you realize that means fucking NOTHING.

Just...just get the fuck over the idea of good and bad. You root for who you like, you root against who your don't like. Get over the idea that someone is right or wrong, good or bad. No one in the story views themselves as the bad guy. There's no lurking darkness driving people to commit evil acts.

The Lannisters aren't evil. The Greyjoys aren't evil. The Targaryen's aren't evil. NO ONE is evil. There is no evil. The Lannisters, Targs, and Greyjoy's aren't even necessarily WRONG. They all work for the betterment of their families, but none of them are doing it out of some evil desire to subjugate the world.

Even the "evil" characters like the Mountain aren't evil in the traditional sense, they're just fucked up horrible people. They're not driven by some power greater than themselves. They are occasionally enabled by more powerful people, but even then their awful acts are "justified" as a means to an end that is the "rightful" path for the kingdom.

I maybe shouldn't have had that last beer...but the point I'm getting at is that the deeper we get in to the series the more obvious it becomes that no one is good or bad. People just are what they are. Sometimes those people have power by birth....that sucks.
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Disagree... Joffrey at least the way he is portrayed on the show, has zero redeeming qualities. Cersei also. Pretty much everything they do is selfish, uninterested in others, and cruel, many times intentionally so. We know Jaime has a redemption somewhat later, but at this point, there's nothing good about him. Tywin is portrayed fairly well in the show, but since he more or less never appeared in the books at this point, thats different. Tyrion is a relatively good character.

The Boltons, the Mountain, Aliser Thorne, the Freys etc; all these guys are just bad. There's no good in them. They've done nothing good. You're right in saying that even the "good" characters have done plenty of bad stuff, but it's ridiculous to argue that some characters are not more honorable/upright morally than others. They certainly are.
 
McCheese

McCheese

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While I agree about Joffrey having no redeeming qualities, I have to disagree about Cersei. She's a cunt, but she's not evil or innately bad. She makes it pretty clear that everything she does is for the betterment of her family (namely, her children). While I despised her in the earlier books, I actually started feeling quite sorry for her when she hit that rough patch with the religious folk in the later books.
 
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McCheese_sl said:
While I agree about Joffrey having no redeeming qualities, I have to disagree about Cersei. She's a cunt, but she's not evil or innately bad. She makes it pretty clear that everything she does is for the betterment of her family (namely, her children). While I despised her in the earlier books, I actually started feeling quite sorry for her when she hit that rough patch with the religious folk in the later books.
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Not really, she's selfish in every other way too, locking the gates of the city to keep the poor out, not listening to Tyrion or anyone else about anything because she was fanatical for control, having an incestuous relationship even though she knows it will destroy her family/children...

Yea, it's more than just the betterment of her family.
 
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Cybsled_sl said:
Joffrey has zero redeeming qualities in the book as well ;P
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I know, I'm referring to the fact that they actually fleshed out his cruelty and nonsense more in the show than they did in the book. In the book he was a pretty useless cunt but not quite as evil as in the show, at least from what I remember.
 
K

Kubla Kas_sl

shitlord
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Zhaun_sl said:
Not even all the Starks, as Sansa is terrible and Robb fell apart as soon as he got a wiff of pussy. I think they did well showing no family was all bad, yeah? Every family with more than say two members has at least one decent person? Except maybe the Greyjoys.
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Sansa is just a naive little girl who wants to play dress-up and pretend she is a Princess marrying a Prince in a fairy tale. She gets a hard dose of reality and forced to grow up really fast, and its obvious when she realizes things are going wrong that she knows how she behaved is bad and being a nice person is better. Not sure you can place the "terrible" tag on her for that.
 
Cybsled

Cybsled

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Sansa was/is naive, but she is smart enough to know when to STFU, which helps in part to explain why she has lived this long
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Tuco

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I really didn't like Sansa up till now but I have really high hopes for her in the future. I think she'll get the good qualities of littlefinger, her father and her mother (If her mother has any good qualities...). Really just a 'good' littlefinger would be a massively powerful hero, because he's easily one of the top intelligent movers in the series.
 
Z

Zhaun_sl

shitlord
2,568
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Kubla Kas_sl said:
Sansa is just a naive little girl who wants to play dress-up and pretend she is a Princess marrying a Prince in a fairy tale. She gets a hard dose of reality and forced to grow up really fast, and its obvious when she realizes things are going wrong that she knows how she behaved is bad and being a nice person is better. Not sure you can place the "terrible" tag on her for that.
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I find her terrible as I feel she has no character. Her little dreams of marrying a cute little prince and pooping out babies is more important than... well, anything. I could have stomached it up until the journey down the King's Road and the thing with the Butcher's Son. That was the end for me, her inability to put right and wrong over her ridiculous fantasies was just too much.

I do understand that she does redeem herself a bit as we go along, but man, I just can't bring myself to feel bad for the horrible shit show of a life she has put herself in, because I can't help but feel she rather deserves it.
 
Z

Zhaun_sl

shitlord
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Tuco_sl said:
I really didn't like Sansa up till now but I have really high hopes for her in the future. I think she'll get the good qualities of littlefinger, her father and her mother (If her mother has any good qualities...). Really just a 'good' littlefinger would be a massively powerful hero, because he's easily one of the top intelligent movers in the series.
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Are you talking about "now" in the books or in the show?

As in the show I don't see enough of the brainpower in her to be a Littlefinger.
 
Tuco

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bro go read the books, you're ruining all the things for yourself!

and to your point, I don't know many 10 year old girls with any kind of brainpower for anything. But she's soaked in the politics and guile of the story and has an opportunity to make something for herself in a way that no stark ever could.
 
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