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Sunnyd_foh

shitlord
0
0
Talking abotu ripping off other MMO"s:

After messing around in LOTRO for the last couple of days, you need to rip off their music system.
I can only imagine the hectic fun that could have occured at first time kills, if everyone had been able to bust out a lute and start jamming to we are the champions!
 
Caliane

Caliane

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tad10 said:
How do you feel about hybrid classes?
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Tank, dps, healer triad is an abomination that needs to die and never return.
Except maybe in a 3player coop game.
 
M

MrGraham_foh

shitlord
0
0
How is having a paladin respec from holy to ret any different from someone "respeccing" from rogue to priest, in essence? Both use completely different sets of gear and stats, etc.
 
C

CnCGOD_foh

shitlord
0
0
Sunnyd said:
Talking abotu ripping off other MMO"s:

After messing around in LOTRO for the last couple of days, you need to rip off their music system.
I can only imagine the hectic fun that could have occured at first time kills, if everyone had been able to bust out a lute and start jamming to we are the champions!
Click to expand...
I used the music system a lot, people tended to not like me doing so however.
 
Caliane

Caliane

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MrGraham said:
How is having a paladin respec from holy to ret any different from someone "respeccing" from rogue to priest, in essence? Both use completely different sets of gear and stats, etc.
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Theres several topics having been mentioned. Which is this in reference too?
If its the job vs class issue;
In wow, you have classes with talents. A class no matter the talent spec has the same skills. A ret paladin and holy paladin have the exact same skills, with only talent based ones differant and talents modifing them. They also have the same exact modes of operation.

Now, if in wow you could respec to other classes entirely. Now a paladin respecing, can choose from 9 classes with 3 talent pools each. 9 sets of skills with 27 sets of talents.
This is with the presumption, that a character does loose their old job abilities.
What if someone makes a rogue/mage? You would need to itemize for that. rogue/preists, etc.
How would rogue energy+priest mana work? Would you make all classes funtion the same? WAR"s AP? would that be more or less fun then unique methods like rage/energy/mana of wow?
That is a very large amount of variation the dev team would need to account for in balance, gearing, and potential roles.
 
Zehnpai

Zehnpai

Molten Core Raider
399
1,245
Caliane said:
Theres several topics having been
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Obvious troll is obvious. Anybody could answer these questions with about 3 seconds of critical thinking.

Move along folks.
 
P

Pinski_foh

shitlord
0
0
Caliane said:
Theres several topics having been mentioned. Which is this in reference too?
If its the job vs class issue;
In wow, you have classes with talents. A class no matter the talent spec has the same skills. A ret paladin and holy paladin have the exact same skills, with only talent based ones differant and talents modifing them. They also have the same exact modes of operation.

Now, if in wow you could respec to other classes entirely. Now a paladin respecing, can choose from 9 classes with 3 talent pools each. 9 sets of skills with 27 sets of talents.
This is with the presumption, that a character does loose their old job abilities.
What if someone makes a rogue/mage? You would need to itemize for that. rogue/preists, etc.
How would rogue energy+priest mana work? Would you make all classes funtion the same? WAR"s AP? would that be more or less fun then unique methods like rage/energy/mana of wow?
That is a very large amount of variation the dev team would need to account for in balance, gearing, and potential roles.
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You"re talking about including the subjob system, which is not a must for the job system.
 
F

Flight

Molten Core Raider
1,230
288
Caliane said:
In a job system game, your job and skills define your character and its role.
In a gear based game, you have set roles, and the gear defines how well you do it.
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To be fair Caliane, everyone else has been discussing the job system based on the following premise, which was stated a few posts before you entered the discussion :


As far as the FFXI job system, its convoluted by the fact there are two aspects to it :

i) the ability to raise all jobs on one character, though all must be leveled separately;

ii) you select a main job and a sub-job at all times, with the sub-job acting at half the level of the main job.


I"m advocating i) without ii). The ability to raise all - or a limited number - of classes on one character and the ability to play a single one of those classes at a time.
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Based on that, in each of your posts you could substitute the word "class" for "job". Each character can only play one class at a time, they"ve had to spend the time to raise each class individually and the ease/regularity of change class is designated by the game designers (personally my opinion is you should not be able to change it out on the "fly", while adventuring, but only in towns and then at a regularity defined by the designers).

There is very little effect on game mechanic "balance" and no effect on groups/partys, beyond core classes being more readily available. Possibly the only issue is fitting it into strongly story driven games.

Unless you have played FFXI extensively its impossible to gauge the benefits. It just feels SO much better to be leveling / grinding / replaying the game as your main than it does doing so on an alt - it practically negates the "grind" feeling.


The benefits to a game developer are enormous :

i) It induces the feeling to players of improving their character that an AA system does - but they aren"t making their character stronger in any way.

ii) In generates massive amounts of replayability and subscriber retention.


This is at near zero development cost. Honestly, its a no brainer for any major MMO, but still no-one has included it beyond FFXI.
 
Big_w_powah

Big_w_powah

Trakanon Raider
1,887
750
I still think the idea of gear granting skills is a valid option.

You start as apprentice level 1--you go and kill the invading gnolls. From the gnolls, you pick up certain pieces of gear..lets say the plate wristguard of smiting. This wrist guard is +6 divine skill, +3 Weapon Skill, and whatever stats there might be along with it (AC, Dex, HP/Mana, etc..)

You now have 6 points to spend in the divine skill tree, 3 to spend in the weapon skill tree. These trees grant skills/upgrades to aspects of that tree. You"d be able to re-arrange your points once an hour, or every time you changed pieces of gear (gear could only be changed outside of combat--would need a check to make sure a different piece of gear was put on rather than unequiped/equiped).

Weapons could either grant more points, or my preference; Weapons would require X ammount of skill points in a tree.

This would allow you to control the ammount of power capable to be gained by a person, while there being constant advancement of character, and customization out the ass.


Lets say you have two "sets" of tank gear--one with a LOT of +defense skill gear but lesser hp/mana/ac, and one with a lot of hp/ac/mana but lesser +defense skill.

Now this allows you to flex your encounters. One encounter against, say, a giant beserker would favor the hp/mana/ac set. Another encounter against a dragon with breath weapons would favor the extra skills of the +defense set--which would be all about different shield blocks of the "big" attacks (breath weapons, tail jabs, etc..).

Then again, I"m just a guy with a (probably bad) idea.
 
Caliane

Caliane

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Big W Powah! said:
I still think the idea of gear granting skills is a valid option.

You start as apprentice level 1--you go and kill the invading gnolls. From the gnolls, you pick up certain pieces of gear..lets say the plate wristguard of smiting. This wrist guard is +6 divine skill, +3 Weapon Skill, and whatever stats there might be along with it (AC, Dex, HP/Mana, etc..)

You now have 6 points to spend in the divine skill tree, 3 to spend in the weapon skill tree. These trees grant skills/upgrades to aspects of that tree. You"d be able to re-arrange your points once an hour, or every time you changed pieces of gear (gear could only be changed outside of combat--would need a check to make sure a different piece of gear was put on rather than unequiped/equiped).

Weapons could either grant more points, or my preference; Weapons would require X ammount of skill points in a tree.

This would allow you to control the ammount of power capable to be gained by a person, while there being constant advancement of character, and customization out the ass.


Lets say you have two "sets" of tank gear--one with a LOT of +defense skill gear but lesser hp/mana/ac, and one with a lot of hp/ac/mana but lesser +defense skill.

Now this allows you to flex your encounters. One encounter against, say, a giant beserker would favor the hp/mana/ac set. Another encounter against a dragon with breath weapons would favor the extra skills of the +defense set--which would be all about different shield blocks of the "big" attacks (breath weapons, tail jabs, etc..).

Then again, I"m just a guy with a (probably bad) idea.
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There are a number of precedents of games with skills,etc being from gear. It makes progression pretty easy to create in a risk/reward. Since loot is directly creating your progress. Alot of people do not like it though. Might be a little to random. no one likes to feel like its their gear that is making them good. All gear no skill, remarks, etc. An rpg will never allow players to be on a completely even playing field like a fps, but it should try to find a way to have some semblance of it.
 
Caliane

Caliane

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Flight said:
To be fair Caliane, everyone else has been discussing the job system based on the following premise, which was stated a few posts before you entered the discussion :

Based on that, in each of your posts you could substitute the word "class" for "job". Each character can only play one class at a time, they"ve had to spend the time to raise each class individually and the ease/regularity of change class is designated by the game designers (personally my opinion is you should not be able to change it out on the "fly", while adventuring, but only in towns and then at a regularity defined by the designers).

There is very little effect on game mechanic "balance" and no effect on groups/partys, beyond core classes being more readily available. Possibly the only issue is fitting it into strongly story driven games.

Unless you have played FFXI extensively its impossible to gauge the benefits. It just feels SO much better to be leveling / grinding / replaying the game as your main than it does doing so on an alt - it practically negates the "grind" feeling.
The benefits to a game developer are enormous :
i) It induces the feeling to players of improving their character that an AA system does - but they aren"t making their character stronger in any way.

ii) In generates massive amounts of replayability and subscriber retention.

This is at near zero development cost. Honestly, its a no brainer for any major MMO, but still no-one has included it beyond FFXI.
Click to expand...
Bad phrasing I suppose. Because you are describing classes as they are known in every game basically ever when you say jobs then... Job is usually refering to a skill based system where classes don"t exist. Or they are very simplified. UO"s warrior, merchant or mage. The job teaches you skills.
What you are describing then is more like a class system. Where you have a set set of skills, for that class.

So basically, you just want to be able to roll an alt with the same character?
And have that character be able to alternate between its states.

Alot people like alts as seperate characters I"m sure. But neither would be mutually exclusive. I can"t say I see a reason why most mmo"s couldn"t allow that.
 
Caliane

Caliane

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Draegan said:
Classes, mana, leveling and experience are so outdated. Someone needs to make something better.
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You could have skills and stats! Skills could be like 1-300 and you improve them by using the skill itself. And stats the same.
So like chopping down trees with an axe would increase you axe skill, your strength, and your lumberjacking skill.



I like levels. Lots of them. My mmo would be like Disgaea and have a max level of like 9999. Its a good way to reward the player. Every likes gaining a level. Its one of the things D2 did so well. Casual play, levels 1 takes 10 seconds. 2-10 take 10 mintues, 11-20 take 2 hours. 21-40 take a week. 41-65 takes a month, 66-85 takes 2 months, 86-99 takes 6months+ Give or take. Powergaming of course makes those all take like 10 minutes..
A steady progression of levels gives a constant feeling of progress. I"m level 70 an I have nothing to do but farm cash does not happen. The difference in a character when a level is gained of course is very minor. This prevents the hardcore from slaughtering people at level 150 vs level 70s. This can"t work with WoW stats/level atm. Resistances and such as they are level based. The problem of course, is as I mentioned previously. Without a level cap, level becomes another source of variance when trying to balance things out. Soft level caps are my favorite.
 
Agraza

Agraza

Registered Hutt
6,890
521
Draegan said:
I was being sarcastic and mocking Zehn.
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I totally got that. Unfortunately I think like he does and agree with the majority of his specific points. When you speak in generalities like that it does sound a bit ludicrous though.
 
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