Then 95% of your players become tank-mages or whatever else proves to be the most powerful, and if you aren"t one then you aren"t included in any reindeer games.Dumar said:
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except there never usually is a "most powerful" in these types of games. "most powerful" usually comes up in class-based ones (hello DK). tank mage just sounds good to say, but there many other arch types in uo that could beat tank mages, like dex monkeys.
And PoM. And to a lesser extent BS, though they were balanced by needing to melee. Ranged DPS + best heals = just not even fair.
So what do you do? Tweak heals down to uselessness in favor of DPS? Then you just have a current WoW ele shaman or ret paladin. Boost heals and drop DPS to meager levels? Then you have resto druids.
I would suggest the problem isn"t the design of the system, it"s the people who have played games that follow this system for the last decade or more.
So what do you do? Tweak heals down to uselessness in favor of DPS? Then you just have a current WoW ele shaman or ret paladin. Boost heals and drop DPS to meager levels? Then you have resto druids.
I would suggest the problem isn"t the design of the system, it"s the people who have played games that follow this system for the last decade or more.
Tred said:
The reason people bitched about ToS"es wasn"t anything to do with their healing, it was simply that they could do more DPS than the "Wizard" class (Demonologist) - though specifically in PvE, not PvP.Twobit Whore said:
The thing is that all the classes outlined above - and many more - really come into their own in a class system that doesn"t include dedicated healers.
Woefully Inept
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When people talk about skill based systems vs. class based systems all I can think about is Asheron"s Call and how pretty much everyone was either full magic build or a combo build with a weapon skill magic, usually at Life and Item magic for creature debuffs and weapon buffs. Those were pretty much the only two templates I remember anyone that wanted a truly viable character use. People talk about having more choices with a skill based system but I guess I haven"t experienced agoodskill based MMO to agree with that. I"d love to see an MMO go against that but right now the thought makes me cringe a little bit.
It really depends on the size of the game (how many players it attracts). Shadowbane, for instance, had huge class customizability and a majority of the players took their own creativity to meet their playstyle.
On the other hand, WoW and AC had similar customizability yet most of the community stayed with cookie cutter builds and, in general, didn"t deviate much from the norm.
Of course, there is also the fact that in Shadowbane it was advantageous to keep your build to yourself since it was such a PvP centric game, but still, I think that because it didn"t sell very well and the population remained low, the information didn"t disperse as much.
Do I think a skill based game could remain open and not end up with a bunch of cookie cutter builds? Yeah, probably, but it would be very difficult and I don"t know how to even begin to fight that fight.
On the other hand, WoW and AC had similar customizability yet most of the community stayed with cookie cutter builds and, in general, didn"t deviate much from the norm.
Of course, there is also the fact that in Shadowbane it was advantageous to keep your build to yourself since it was such a PvP centric game, but still, I think that because it didn"t sell very well and the population remained low, the information didn"t disperse as much.
Do I think a skill based game could remain open and not end up with a bunch of cookie cutter builds? Yeah, probably, but it would be very difficult and I don"t know how to even begin to fight that fight.
AC had plenty of "viable" skill specs, but there wasn"t anything exceedingly challenging in that game either. You could actually get along just fine as a gimp triple-def spec melee fighter without even item magic if you spent the time to find the gear required to make it work or always had a friend. There is something to be said about using the odd weapons in AC though, finding perfect maces/spears at dirt cheap prices was often worth the minimal difference in effectiveness.
It"s not hard to visualize a skill-based game that limits what abilities you can use based on the armor and weapons you have equipped.
Big_w_powah
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i think the best way would be penalties. let the player equip whatever they want whenever they want, but if you"re gonna cast a spell in plate then twirling your hands around to cast in plate gaunts will have drawbacks.FoghornDeadhorn said:
i hate being told no just because some designer is too lazy to either find a way i can or just tells me i can"t.
Thing is, its already been done. To an extent anyway. Only no one really looks into taking it to the next level, because its only available in a dated game that many pass over for one reason or another.Dumar said:
Funcom really hit a home run with AO"s system of using buffed stats to over-equip items well beyond your base abilities. Stacking buffs to equip implants that raised those stats even further, in order to equip even better gear and nanos (re: spells) that some might say you shouldn"t be wearing/using, was an everyday part of the game. It was fun and interesting. Many considered it a "mini-game" within the game. Therein lies the problem. It was a bit too complicated for the average gamer, who just wants to jump in and play. That, and you needed to maintain the necessary buffs for the stuff to be fully effective. But even if you couldn"t, overequipped items still performed marginally better. However, it involved quite a bit of time and forethought.
I think WoW"s "legendary" items are a pretty cool idea that sort of touches on it, except for that they"re really only good for twinking alts. A few pieces of gear that grows with you. Nice for burning up excess badges (which is kinda the point), but of no real use to a main character. Especially if you"re raiding Naxx and such.
I don"t think it would take a lot to develop a system similar to AO"s, but not quite as complex and more friendly for the average gamer into other games. I was kind of surprised to learn that FC didn"t borrow some of it for AoC. As I said in the AoC thread, I think it would have been a great addition, because it would have added much more meaning to stats and items.
Such a system could have huge benefits for any class of character through specialization paths. It only takes removing the limitations of classes by allowing them to spec into other areas through stats and items.
I think I should point out that stacking buff items to equip/activate equipment you shouldn"t be able to isn"t "fun" or "innovative". It was god damn retarded in AC and is just as stupid a concept in AO or any game since then. The dumb Focusing Stone was the start of 18 piece of gear startup checklists for equipping stuff without Arcane Lore trained. I mean if you really enjoy that sort of thing, go write technical manuals and stop playing MMOs.
Ahh, right. But I know that i"m rapidly running out of shit to buy for my alts, and the badges are starting to pile up againAgraza said:
Thats where you confuse it. In AO, you WERE able. Andencouraged. It was part of the game"s design. It wasn"t some fluke side effect borne out of a lack of forethought in the development. The problem was that it was just too complicated and time consuming for most average gamers.Palum said:
In that respect yes, its retarded. But make it more easily accessable to a wider percentage of your playerbase, and it becomes more of an asset.
Twinking in AO may have been a pain in the ass for many, but you didn"t exactly have to be a rocket scientist either. You could get by easily without it. But if you were really into it, it added another aspect to the game to enjoy. AO"s twinking was definitely NOT for what i"d consider a "casual" player.
I think not being able to backstab or gouge with a staff or cast elaborate spells with a breastplate is pretty reasonable. There is areasoncloth classes wear robes instead of, you know, armor, in a world where they are constantly in mortal danger, after all. Not like it"s a concept that hasn"t been done.
Rayne said:
Like you Rayne, I adored that aspect of AO. And, yes, it absolutely was part of the game and class design.
I agree with what you are saying - that to wring every last ounce out of the stat system required a fair bit of thought, stacking buffs that allowed you to use other buffs etc, then swapping out implants to use more, but even the most basic players could quickly learn the system and grab some major buffage to allow them to equip gear - they weren"t equipping QL200 gear at lvl 50, but it wasn"t hard to get ahead.
To me, that was the beauty of it.
My fondest MMO memories are "squeezing" into gear that never seemed designed for your level. It felt like an accomplishment to be level 20 and put on level 70 gear. Did it make you invincible, maybe against even con and a bit higher but even if you had lvl 70 gear on, lvl 50 mobs would rip you apart.Flight said:
A system that embraces this like AO could use a mini "interactive tutorial" about how to twink. People would gain the initial concept and develop from there from the community.