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Kuro_foh

shitlord
0
0
Losing your Corpse in EQ1 was that.

It rarely happened outside of the "noob" era (aka, after you figured out how to play the game, gained 10-20 levels, had some friends, and finally had shit worth losing) since you had well more than enough time to get it yourself, get a group to help, or to get a necro to summon it. But it was a "ZOMG HARDCORE" threat that made death "scary."

Providing the illusion of risk is often as effective as actual danger.
 

Treesong

Bronze Knight of the Realm
362
29
Ngruk said:
The hardest thing to avoid, and it really is unavoidable in many cases, is having players replay content.

Unless you hit on a random content generator that creates bad ass totally random FUN AND MEANINGFUL content, it"s next to impossible.

If you are telling a story, a TRUE DYED IN THE WOOL story, with iconic heroes, villains, plot, sub plots, beginnings, middles, ends, it IS impossible.

It really comes down to work. As in the amount of work you are willing to PAY FOR, and assign time to, in content creation.
I think replaying certain content is not that bad at all, because it can involve different emotions then when you played through it the first time. Replaying old content can involve nostalgia and revenge for instance, to name two. Nostalgia has gotten a bad rep for some reason but is a major reason why I am stil playing EQ (and why SOE is getting my money). Revenge is sometimes known as bottomfeeding, i.e. revisit Blackburrow and lay waste there with your level 75 Beastlord for some payback time. Or just having fun with your high level against light blue mobs in a dungeon that is "not your intended level", and feel badass about what you accomplished with your toon. I think it depends on how you build your world though. I constantly revisit old zones and dungeons in EQ, revisit NPC"s, even do old quests with crappy rewards (but with funny and touching little scripts) and look for old Rare mobs, no matter if their loot is obsolete.

If your world is built like a Themepark, then the "rides" get old, and your content gets stale after a while for sure. But if your World is built in a way where NPCs are memorable, and the World forced you to make memories, then you will have content that hardly ever gets old. Well at least for explorer types like me.

EQ had such a world, both through some harsh mechanics(Death penalty), but also through its intricate Racial landscape, complicated Faction system that linked remote parts of the world together in intriguing ways and gave many NPCs a "face", the many KOS NPC"s that added danger and urged you to peek around corners first before storming into a room, the fact that we could attack most anything(and be punished for it) and the tiered /con system (from Ally to Scowling) which painted the NPCs or mobs stance towards us and made them memorable to us, and make us care about them (in several ways..).

EQ is definately the *only* MMO I ever played where I actually got some emotions about NPC"s or mobs. The faction system and tiered /con system, but also the way we talked to them(through the same means as we talked to players, i.e. the chat channel) all helped immensely towards this. Next to many being KOS to us, killing us often on the spot(that certainly made me care).

Off course lots of other mechanics helped make the world memorable too(and replayable). If your MMO does not have actual doors in the first place, then peeking around the door to see if a mob is KOS is not even possible. Personally I am amazed by the amount of MMOs that do not have doors or even do away with interiors entirely exept a few Quest instances....

Merchant mining, or NPCs stocking other players stuff for you to buy: another such mechanic that entails much more then just "someones garbage is another mans treasure". This always has been a typical "Massively Multiplayer" feature for me in subtle ways. For me, such an NPC merchant always has been a kind of "link in time" between players of the same world. Not only is this NPC an intermediary between 2 players in making certain items change hands: but it tells a story at the same time. When I for instance find a single Brownie Parts on some Merchant in a remote Inn in Highpass, then I immediately know that at some point another players was here, who apparently had been hunting Brownies somewhere in the world and decided to get rid of that loot here. When I find a few Arctic Scallops on the merchant too with maybe a Wyvern Hide, then I can conclude that this player probably hunted in Cobalt Scar. Was it a Druid maybe, who were fond of kiting Wyverns there? Where would he have killed the Brownie, was it in Lesser Faydark? Intrigue!

Through this NPC, I see the actions of another player, and we are linked. Not only that, but the NPC becomes part of our world too, being the intermediary.

Again, caring about the World and the NPCs in it. This is so much different in modern MMOs where most NPCs are just pez-dispensers for Quests.

Well, now that I have made my post so long that everybody will skip it anyway, I may as well add another pet-peeve of mine: pop-ups. A well built World needsthisand not some popup in 12pt Arial_Bold when I mouse over some blank texture(or gibberish). One of the NPCs in EQ that I truly cared for (in many different ways) was Tumpy Irontoe. Andhis graffiticertainly helped with that.

I think using popups for this sort of stuff is a copout. No doubt is it easier to implement, easier to change, easier for localization of your product and cheaper then having to design an actual texture with writing on it, but it sure looks better if I can see such graffiti as being an actual part of the world, rather then the MMO Database rearing its ugly head in my world.

Not a fan of the humongous Dialogue popup windows in modern MMOs either, I"ll take chatting through keywords anyday, for the above mentioned reason(we talk to NPCs in the same way as we talk to players) but also because I might actually catch a phrase or two from your Lore while looking fo the keywords. Fishing for hidden keywords was even more fun but I guess there is no way in hell that a company will ever dare to "punish" their customers like that anymore.

Another thing: dialogue with NPCs should be seen in the world, by other players. I will not play the "realism" card here (I could though!) because people love to go on a tangent on that sort of stuff, but personally I like it when I see stuff happening in the world and see other players converse with NPCs. I"ll just wait my turn if the NPC is spamming his text too fast for me. I always get this tired feeling when I see a player talk to an NPC, see the NPC turning towards the player and then.......utter silence. The player and the NPC are in their own little bubble, mindreading apparently. Making certain things private in a MMO can be good(some instancing) but this is bad.

I think MMOs are not being social enough these days and I am not talking about the trusted "group up to kill mobs for 6 hours" feature, which sometimes seems to be the only "social" aspect left. If you have that in your game you can call yourself a MMO.....

So much left unsaid but I will stop now.
 

Zehnpai

Molten Core Raider
399
1,245
Kuro said:
Losing your Corpse in EQ1 was that.
The real joke of it was even if you did lose your corpse, you could petition and they"d give it back. We had 3 people do that in our guild over the course of the first few years.

At that point I no longer feared death in EQ in so much as I could lose my corpse. I only feared death because it meant another hour of fucking grinding. It was annoying and frustrating, not a rush of adrenaline.

Which is also why every game should have 2~3 "gimmick" servers.

A WoW perma-death server would make me giggle something fierce. Each month wipe the server. First week of the new month people can sign up to join, it randomly picks 2000 people and sets them loose as level 1"s of their race/class choice. Everybody not picked gets priority the next month. If enough people are interested, clone the server and make more.

For the first week of combat, it"s faction vs. faction. During the second week, it"s race vs. race. And during the 4th and final week it"s free for all. The person with the most kills at the end wins. Give them some kind of reward. Maybe reward the top 15 or something, whatever. Perhaps a custom weapon for the winner on his server or a custom mount.

I think I would poop myself often on such a server. Something like that will keep the game fresh while at the same time not causing me to ragequit like I would in a game where perma-death is a "feature" of the main game. Something to do inbetween raids with my guild.

It"s amazing how little game developers learn from the FPS genre which has been keeping itself fresh for -years- by constantly doing shit like this. All the "gimmick" maps in CS like surfing, brick breaker, zombie mod, WC3 mod, etc...etc...

Granted that"s mostly the community keeping the game fresh for the developers, but they"re unpaid slovenly nobodies. You"re high profile well paid stars! Surely you can outdo them!
 

Ninen_foh

shitlord
0
0
Zehn - Vhex said:
Eh, it"s not entirely applicable. MMO"s are perfectly fine with killing you off. The difference between dying in a DnD campaign and losing some/all of your progress is then the DM can come up with an entirely new adventure for an entirely new band of adventurers.

He doesn"t just bust out the old campaigns and say, "Alright, time to do them all over again!"

In an MMO, this is more akin to the game deleting all your characters at level 30 and then telling you to go play a different MMO. Not exactly a very good business model even if it would create a sense of dread.

We want that sense of danger but we want it to never actually happen to us. In that case they might as well go 1984 on our ass and do a daily announcement of all the people who died and their characters were PERMANANTLY DELETED OOOOO! just never actually do it. Then create random forum troll accounts to talk about how it"s true, it happened to them and they even rerolled!
I"m not talking about perma death, I"m talking about the very simple ratio between "penalty for dying" and how much you actually give a shit about dieing. And how the players need slapped every once in a while, how they need to NOT get what they want and assume they"ll be given.

EQ you gave a shit because of the run, because of the time you spent getting your exp back, because of the potential lost corpse. That very annoyance that you knew you"d be in for influenced your choices sometimes.

WoW? not so much, and as such, who really cares about it?
 

Blackulaa_foh

shitlord
0
0
Zehn - Vhex said:
Which is also why every game should have 2~3 "gimmick" servers.

A WoW perma-death server would make me giggle something fierce. Each month wipe the server. First week of the new month people can sign up to join, it randomly picks 2000 people and sets them loose as level 1"s of their race/class choice. Everybody not picked gets priority the next month. If enough people are interested, clone the server and make more.

For the first week of combat, it"s faction vs. faction. During the second week, it"s race vs. race. And during the 4th and final week it"s free for all. The person with the most kills at the end wins. Give them some kind of reward. Maybe reward the top 15 or something, whatever. Perhaps a custom weapon for the winner on his server or a custom mount.

I think I would poop myself often on such a server.
That would be freaking insane They did this sort of with the arena servers, but once again that is not massive like your idea.

I wet myself.
 

Caliane

Avatar of War Slayer
15,331
11,631
Zehn - Vhex said:
The real joke of it was even if you did lose your corpse, you could petition and they"d give it back. We had 3 people do that in our guild over the course of the first few years.

At that point I no longer feared death in EQ in so much as I could lose my corpse. I only feared death because it meant another hour of fucking grinding. It was annoying and frustrating, not a rush of adrenaline.

Which is also why every game should have 2~3 "gimmick" servers.

A WoW perma-death server would make me giggle something fierce. Each month wipe the server. First week of the new month people can sign up to join, it randomly picks 2000 people and sets them loose as level 1"s of their race/class choice. Everybody not picked gets priority the next month. If enough people are interested, clone the server and make more.

For the first week of combat, it"s faction vs. faction. During the second week, it"s race vs. race. And during the 4th and final week it"s free for all. The person with the most kills at the end wins. Give them some kind of reward. Maybe reward the top 15 or something, whatever. Perhaps a custom weapon for the winner on his server or a custom mount.

I think I would poop myself often on such a server. Something like that will keep the game fresh while at the same time not causing me to ragequit like I would in a game where perma-death is a "feature" of the main game. Something to do inbetween raids with my guild.

It"s amazing how little game developers learn from the FPS genre which has been keeping itself fresh for -years- by constantly doing shit like this. All the "gimmick" maps in CS like surfing, brick breaker, zombie mod, WC3 mod, etc...etc...

Granted that"s mostly the community keeping the game fresh for the developers, but they"re unpaid slovenly nobodies. You"re high profile well paid stars! Surely you can outdo them!
thats a great idea really.

Not paying attention to other genres boggles my mind a bit. BGs/Scenarios are litterly ripped right from FPS arena games, yet they really didn"t run with the idea or appearently pay attention past the first step. I know you"ve said, and I certainly have. Why in gods name aren"t there more maps for the same formats? there should be like 7 "WSG" ctf in wow at this point with maps on rotation. etc.
 

Tropics_foh

shitlord
0
0
Caliane said:
So you don"t just want to mindlessly kill trash on the way to the boss, you want to mindlessly kill trash to points A,B,and C, to unlock the gate, so you can mindlessly kill trash on they way to the boss.
I think you totally missed the point...
No, that is not really what I said in the slightest. What I said was that if you want to create a system where people are required to kill "trash" then you need to create a puropse behind that trash killing that makes the people feel like they are doing something more then just wasting their time, which I related to how Sunken Temple was designed (you actually READ the post I made right?). It was a direct response to a post that mentioned "trash" could be killed and drop little shard types of things that lower the power of the boss and adding loot, aka making the trash be a slight task type of thing with meaning, AGAIN much like they did in Sunken temple linking "trash" mobs to the later bosses.

If you want a system where you zone into a dungeon, the first mob you meet is the boss, you kill, loot, and then move on then so be it. But in most people"s minds that is not quite the answer and you need to somehow make the dungeon a journey and make the player spend some effort and time in a dungeon to get the rewards, and that journey and time should give the player the sense of purpose and a good storyline and reasoning for their actions. If you disagree with that then meh.
 

Bellstian_foh

shitlord
0
0
I don"t mind clearing raid trash to be honest; as long as it isn"t an extreme time sink. I think the trash in MC was just about right...maybe 10-15% less mobs but that"s about it.

It all depends on the toughness of the encounters, BWL clearly didn"t need anymore trash...and the clear to C"thun...well let"s not talk about that. Overall I think WoW had it right pre-BC for the most part for raid trash.
 

Cadrid_foh

shitlord
0
0
Using trash to help tell the story, drop loot to help "fill out" gear for the upcoming boss(es), introduce new gameplay mechanics (e.g. the Core Hounds synchronized dieing), and if there"s an alternate experience of some sort (dual-classes, job system, AAs, etc.) provide an incremental increase to that path as well.

Dynamic content, where the mob behavior, toughness and lay-out varies depending upon certain conditions met by the person/group/raid, would go a long way to help prevent the "Rush the imps, AoE "em down, stay away from the door" monotony of repeated dungeon crawls. The feasibility of such a system working amongst dozens of dungeons is beyond me, but an AI Director ala Left4Dead (as someone said earlier) might be something for MMO developers to look into. It could help keep content fresh without making people wait 6-18 months, or run the dev team into the ground.
 

Fammaden_foh

shitlord
0
0
Treesong said:
EQ had such a world...through its intricate Racial landscape, complicated Faction system that linked remote parts of the world together in intriguing ways and gave many NPCs a "face", the many KOS NPC"s that added danger and urged you to peek around corners first before storming into a room, the fact that we could attack most anything(and be punished for it) and the tiered /con system (from Ally to Scowling) which painted the NPCs or mobs stance towards us and made them memorable to us, and make us care about them (in several ways..).

EQ is definately the *only* MMO I ever played where I actually got some emotions about NPC"s or mobs. The faction system and tiered /con system, but also the way we talked to them(through the same means as we talked to players, i.e. the chat channel) all helped immensely towards this. Next to many being KOS to us, killing us often on the spot
Lots of the nostalgia is debatable, and many things about EQ were downright mistakes or outdated. But this is one thing that I think is solidly true. The way EQ handled races/factions is far far better to me than horde/alliance or any other race/faction system I have seen since. Especially better than WoW"s. EQ had consequences for your choice at character selection, but you could still group with anyone else playing the game, and with work you could rewrite the racial boundaries of your character. Often with consequences, which isn"t always a bad thing. The NPC vendor system you mentioned lent some interesting character as well.
 

Caliane

Avatar of War Slayer
15,331
11,631
Tropics said:
No, that is not really what I said in the slightest. What I said was that if you want to create a system where people are required to kill "trash" then you need to create a puropse behind that trash killing that makes the people feel like they are doing something more then just wasting their time, which I related to how Sunken Temple was designed (you actually READ the post I made right?). It was a direct response to a post that mentioned "trash" could be killed and drop little shard types of things that lower the power of the boss and adding loot, aka making the trash be a slight task type of thing with meaning, AGAIN much like they did in Sunken temple linking "trash" mobs to the later bosses.

If you want a system where you zone into a dungeon, the first mob you meet is the boss, you kill, loot, and then move on then so be it. But in most people"s minds that is not quite the answer and you need to somehow make the dungeon a journey and make the player spend some effort and time in a dungeon to get the rewards, and that journey and time should give the player the sense of purpose and a good storyline and reasoning for their actions. If you disagree with that then meh.
Yes, your saying killing trash to unlock a key to the boss. Sunken temple (keys, idols), scholomance(viewing room key, basement lever), stratheholm (Zigs), BRD(gate). Essentially no different from what is done now. The trash is a time sink. The only difference is its not a straight line in your statement its 4 lines. That"s not better, that"s worse. 4 timesinks to the one payoff. Constant reward, and constant payoff is the answer.
Stratheholm zigs drop loot, thats the key of them being reasonably fun. If they didn"t, people would scream bloody murder and never do that instance.
Farming shards as Kurt mentioned also not so good, as it has the same issue in the end. hours of boring with 1 big payoff at the end.
Another person brought up the random drop point. If something good can drop, AT ANY TIME, people are encouraged to be there all the time cause it might drop, even at a low percentage.
 

Treesong

Bronze Knight of the Realm
362
29
I think someones comment on something I said in this thread accidentally got lost in the reputation system, it is a bit hard for others to see your opinion on the matter that way. It is also a bit awkward to reply to since it is an anonymous comment, but hopefully this answer will reach the right person anyway.

I think Everquest Faction in the old world is quit different from the dual seesaw-type faction we see in other games. I will admit right away that ever since the Omens/GOD expansion, Everquest went the same way as modern MMOs with their faction though. With dual faction I mean that you either choose for one of two factions that are opposites, and exclusive, in order to open up Quests or Loot. It is a grind mechanic and timesink, which is fine I guess, but it does exactly nothing for me to spice up the world, or give a face to these particular NPCs. This has to do with the complete predictability and transparency of having just one faction going up, with the other going down, or vice versa.

Now in old EQ faction, you saw several factions go down when you killed an NPC or finished a Quest, and you saw several factions go up. The combination of that is what gave these NPCs their place in the world, and it involved often intriguing combinations. The involved factions could say something about the Class of an NPC(Bard faction), or its racial background. There were Merchant factions, Guild factions, City factions, Racial factions, mob-factions. Certain groups of Dark Elves(I think the Warriors) siding with Crushbone Orcs, that sort of thing. Mayong Mistmoore and Bards?

This was faction that meant to give the NPC a place in the world, faction made with an interesting Racial landscape and World in mind, not just some cockblock mechanic that we need to grind on in order to flip a switch either way so we can get the pellet. Modern faction just wants you to pick the Brown eyed or the Blue eyed group.

Not the same thing!
 

Ukerric_foh

shitlord
0
0
Twobit Whore said:
None of these dozens of ratings, or strikethrough or whatever.
Then what? +Gooderer stat and that"s all?

There are tons of gameplay elements, and being able to boost specific elements, or categories, is good. The division between base stats (+hp, +mana, +hit) and main stats (+agi, which adds +dmg, +crit, +dodge) is also good.

What WoW failed is their rating system. The rating system is completely unintuitive. You need an addon to find out exactly what goes on. It started with spellpower, though, which was already unintuitive (what do you mean, spellpower adds +1dmg on this spell, but +0,62 on this spell?)

The main problem is that they tried to mix linear stats (+X dmg) and percentage stats (+X% chance of...). That"s where it broke down. Lesson learned: do not use any stat based on a %. Ever. If you do, you end up with inflationary systems which require horrible contorsions ("increase parry by 2% on mobs below level 68") or mathematically arcane conversion ("increase critical strike by 95.3 divided by your level %") to stay balanced.

Example: Instead of adding critical strike chance, have a static critical strike chance, with maybe a few talent that affect it, then use a critical cap stat. +5 critical cap. Means all your criticals can do +5dmg for now on. That"s something players understand. And it scales (+5 dmg at 20 is +5 dmg at 90).

"But I want my game to have variable critical chances!". Sure. Go ahead. There"s a price to pay, though. Either balance, or simplicity will have to go.


(by the way: when is Blizzard going to streamline ratingbuster, and have the normal interface display a current % instead of an abstract and meaningless rating)
 

Kilaara_foh

shitlord
0
0
Hm when you look at EVE you will see, that the percentage typ is a good thing when you do it the right way.

And in that system its alltime possible to say whats better.

In a Game like wow where the next expension ruins the previous one there lies the problem of stats and stuff. The way is the wrong one.

In EVE you could buy a Battleship in 2004 for around 58 Million Credits (Dominix) from players and in 2009 this same BS will be sold for around 58 Million Credits. Thats because that ship isn"t outdatet in any form.

In WoW you could sold your Ragnaros Sword ( To a merchant ) nearly instant when BC comes out, cause the new green ones would be as good as that one.

So a percentage stats system would be better to handle than that wow mix in my opinion.

Btw. I would like to have some sort of Dungeons in the style of Diablo I which would change theire style and mobs ... under special or normal conditions. Or like Kithicor in old EQ night/Day .. and regions changing mobs and co while having winter/summer ... . You clear a dungeon and it will never be the same cause of the randomizers ... .
 

Ukerric_foh

shitlord
0
0
Kilaara said:
Hm when you look at EVE you will see, that the percentage typ is a good thing when you do it the right way.
As you note: it works... if you do it in a context where there"s very little item progression. The intent of the game is not that you replace items from one content to the next content (be it "next level", "next expansion", whatever). But even then, when they started to introduce Tech 3, they had to dance around that problem.
And in that system its alltime possible to say whats better.
I didn"t say it was impossible to see with % what is better and what is not. I said that, if you offer a %-based stat on your equipment, then you cannot offer long-term equipment progression, or you go straight into a wall. What happens when your players no longer miss, always crit, always dodge, always parry?

EQ hit that wall once they introduced %-based stats on items: the foci. The next expansion, the system was already collapsing. They started with caps, then "pseudo-rating" (over the item level, your effect reduces). Those work - but they"re highly non-intuitive for the player.

There are ways around the "100%" wall. Your opponents have a %-based stat that negates your own, for example: I have 180% chance of crit - yay - but my opponent has 165% resilience, so I crit only 15%. In the next expansion, I have 220% chance of critting... and he has 205% resil... but the problem becomes - again - a way of telling the player what realistically his crit is. If my Crit cap is 380, I know I crit for 380 more damage. If my crit is 180%... how often do I crit?
 

Rangoth

Blackwing Lair Raider
1,726
1,862
Ukerric said:
There are ways around the "100%" wall. Your opponents have a %-based stat that negates your own, for example: I have 180% chance of crit - yay - but my opponent has 165% resilience, so I crit only 15%. In the next expansion, I have 220% chance of critting... and he has 205% resil... but the problem becomes - again - a way of telling the player what realistically his crit is. If my Crit cap is 380, I know I crit for 380 more damage. If my crit is 180%... how often do I crit?
That makes it worse in my eyes. First what about when you are fighting AI mobs? Do you crit 100% of the time(in the 220% example) or do the mobs have the same type of crit reductions?

Plus now as a player the numbers you look at are a lie and don"t make sense. I need to know my number AND my opponents number. That confuses the fuck out of people and just adds in that age old mystery of the original EQ spells that told you nothing. Why bother?

If my screen says I should have 2551 health, thats what I should have. If it says I should crit 5% of the time, I expect it to be around that number.

Edit: Nevermind, it seems we do agree. The crit cap idea is neat but I think WoW"s rating system isn"t terrible. You can see your rating clear as day, it just has a different effect based on your level.
 

Ukerric_foh

shitlord
0
0
rangoth said:
That makes it worse in my eyes. First what about when you are fighting AI mobs? Do you crit 100% of the time(in the 220% example) or do the mobs have the same type of crit reductions?
That"s why I said it was a problem. A different from the "how much does 68 crit rating adds to my chances of critting", but a problem still.
Plus now as a player the numbers you look at are a lie and don"t make sense. I need to know my number AND my opponents number. That confuses the fuck out of people and just adds in that age old mystery of the original EQ spells that told you nothing. Why bother?
There"s a reason I wrote my example using stats named "crit" and "resilience". WoW is already following that road. When you PvP, how much will you crit? How much resilience does you opponent has anyway?
I think WoW"s rating system isn"t terrible. You can see your rating clear as day, it just has a different effect based on your level.
And that"s horribly inelegant. Not to mention that Blizzard should make ratingbus... hmmm? I already said it? Sorry, at my age, you tend to forget those details...
 

Kuro_foh

shitlord
0
0
I dislike Ratings because you spend the next expansion gearing yourself back up to where you already were in those stats.

It just seems... silly.
 

Thengel_foh

shitlord
0
0
Just cap the %s and get it over with. Once people are at or around the caps, they will balance their gear with other stats so they don"t go over the cap. Cap crit at 50% or whatever. Dodge at 25%, parry 25%, etc, etc. It"s exactly like hit rating is in WOW right now. People get near the cap and decide what they want to trade out for. There"s no reason hit couldn"t be flat % on gear instead of ratings. You"d still use the new +.75% hit +20 AP item over the old +.75% hit item.

Upgrade gear slowly and you have a lot of room before the cap. There"s no reason you have to use whole %s (another mistake WOW made). Some people may stack certain stats to hit caps, sacrificing other stats, but if your itemization is good, that"s fine. Once people start hitting the caps, make sure they have options to swap out for once they get there.

The only reason why WOW went to rating systems is because they wanted to entirely discount all of their old content. There"s no reason any other game needs to take the same approach. Blizzard just wanted to make sure we never had any desire to go back to any old content, so they made sure it all automatically nerfed itself.