Guild Wars 2

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I feel like you're willfully attempting to not understand what is being said in this conversation as a way to maintain some kind of faith in GW2.

I do think the Yanger is underestimating the event stuff in GW2. I think the events are an incredible idea and one of the best parts of GW2, but they're a first pass if you will. I don't know of any other MMOs that have tried to do what they did and I really wish other MMOs would copy and improve on it. ESO kind of copied them but went the phasing / individualized route and didn't have the ability to execute really well.
I feel like you're willfully attempting to not understand what is being said in this conversation as a way to maintain some kind of faith in GW2.

I do think the Yanger is underestimating the event stuff in GW2. I think the events are an incredible idea and one of the best parts of GW2, but they're a first pass if you will. I don't know of any other MMOs that have tried to do what they did and I really wish other MMOs would copy and improve on it. ESO kind of copied them but went the phasing / individualized route and didn't have the ability to execute really well.
I think there are many valid criticisms of GW2. Criticisms that amount to "I like the old way better" don't seem to deserve a response beyond "Kiss Some More WoWBum You cartoon humper."

The real criticisms of GW2 PvE:

1. Most of the Living Story in the first "season" was a mile wide and an inch deep. The changes were very shallow and mostly temporary. The story was weak and inconsistent as befits something very rushed. The rewards were all cosmetic and in no real way enhanced your character for playing the game.

Response: Delivering that much content is going to result in thin spots and at least you felt like there was something to see every two weeks if you left the game on your hard drive. There were some really pretty great individual updates even if many were stinkers. Making permanent changes to the world is much harder to do and would have taken too long. Cosmetic rewards allow for the preservation of the no gear treadmill design decision as well as allow us to sell lots of gems and keep the game financially afloat.

2. Dungeons suck. They are easy to game with specific strategies and those problems don't get fixed. The fights are almost all DPS races of the "this one we stack" or "this one we range" variety. Also, dungeons that are not "open" but that you can hunt around on other servers for an open version is a dumb mechanic.

Response: More true for the in the world dungeons than it is true for fractals which were designed and implemented later. Some dungeons have received at least one pass to fix some of the easy methods players have found to go around bosses in them. Rewards have been "adjusted" to make doing a few different ones is more beneficial than running CoF a hundred times in a row. Fractals are actually pretty good with many more interesting fights and strategies. I got no real response to the "dungeon is not open thing." I think that is a dumb mechanic but at least it's really only annoying and not game breaking.

3. Rinse Wash and Repeat: We spend our time doing the same events over and over again. Either Champ Trains or World Events.

Response: Almost every game has been unable to solve the "what do I do now" endgame problem and encouraging players to do the 50 different events in the Boss mob/champ mob cycle is not too bad a variety. Players tend to sort of like doing the big world events with other and it does encourage some degree of socialization.

However it could be made better by making specific loot available for specific world events that are not those big champ train events or world boss events. Make some better loot available on random events out in the world. Reward the zone events that are not the big boss mob events better with nice skins every once in a while and some vanity pets. Create sets of skins for every zone that only drop randomly after events in that zone so that farming events in the zones would be better.

4. Pew Pew Pew One Spec to Rule them All. The only really viable spec is a might based direct damage spec and everything else, all the other specs, are weak compared to this. This is the correct criticism of the combat system and NOT the "there is no trinity wah wah wah."

Response: Combat in GW2 is not some slow ass strategic thing like the games that came before. At its best, it is a very active button mashing type of combat that rewards keyboard dexterity like no other MMO. However, Arenanet seems to have never be able to figure out how to make group interdependence work well in such a speedy environment. Instead what they did was make three systems that made combat more fun but all but eliminated interdependence.

First, dodge avoids all damage. The best healing is to not get hit and each player is encouraged to time their dodges. Unfortunately dodges were made almost independent of the spec system and so you can be a glass cannon and still avoid almost as much damage and have just as much survivability, as someone speced tank or even balance speced. Dodging is certainly a fun mechanic, it's just too powerful and way too independent of the spec system. It's also too individual. Every character has the same dodges basically and no class can make another class dodge more. Combat is happening so fast that there is no "used dodge hit me with the dodge restore!" type interdependence.

Second the downed state/res system. OK so I generally love this mechanic as it does require your group pay attention and it does require group interdependence but it does not require any real specs to res. Everyone pretty much can res at the same sort of effective rate. So, there is no reason to spec into any kind of a res/healer since any pewpew pew glass cannon can res as well and anyone speced healer. They have tried to fix this stuff a little bit by adding some new healing skills and boosting the effective level of survival ger but in my opinion it didn't come close to solving the problems.

Third Random Aggro: I have fought some dungeon bosses 50 times and I still have no idea what the pattern is to their aggro. No sense in specing tank or survival if there is no way to predictably hold aggro or get aggro back. Aggro can bounce... we have all seen aggro dropping and second tank aggroing and top of the dps gets aggro type mechanics but it cannot be so random as to essentially discourage anyone from wearing tank gear.

Solutions should be obvious from this and I do think some sort of "less than holy" trinity would help: 1. Limit the use of dodge per character but give specialized heal characters an ability to grant others more dodges. 2. Decrease all self healing in dungeon and other group situations to only minimal amounts. Increase the power of heal specced characters to heal self and others in group situtions. 3. Decrease the power of everyone to res and give that power mostly to heal specced characters. 4. Derandomize aggro to the extent that tank specced characters can grab aggro (maybe not hold aggro but more grab it for short times). Substantially increase the fragility of DPS characters BUT give healer type characters barrier abilities that they can use to halt damage before it hits - but make those barriers short lived create a damage barrier rotation of sorts.

edit: Oh my god that got too long TL
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R The game is broken just not exactly the way the WoW boys think
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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You're being pretty fucking obtuse, and you should probably spend time reading what people are saying against GW2. Almost everyone here loves the heart system. Almost everyone here loves the combat system (though the combo system they hyped up was incredibly disappointing). Almost everyone here loves the event system (even though it was nothing like what they hyped pre-launch. It's not dynamic at all).

Almost everyone here hates the class system. It's really not a good class system for group PVE combat. There is no structure, it's essentially a utility/dps fight while running around in circles. It hardly ever evokes strategy other than stacking buffs. The majority of people like having a job or a role in combat. In GW2 that isn't defined.

The largest complaint is that Anet seems to be just adding fluff on top of fluff and calling it "content". For the vast majority here, gaming is all about getting more powerful and building your character to be the best. GW2 has none of this. They've mostly added story events and small content bites that have a plot.

I didn't play GW1 but heard a lot about it from others. Pyros had the perfect post about it a few pages ago. GW1 was all about team comps, skill hunting, gear hunting, class combinations and builds etc. Gw2 has none of that. The state of the game is incredibly stale. For games to keep people coming back and having fun, you need a revolving meta or a progression ladder to climb.
 
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Anytime someone is a fanboy of a game, and someone else says something about the game they always say, "We know you like WOW" or "Go back to playing WOW" or whatever other variation. The problem with this statement is that the majority of people here don't even play WOW any more; and some for a very long time.
If the criticisms amount to "This game should be more like WoW" then I think it's a valid response to say "WoW is stale and this is not WoW."
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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Who said the game should be more like WOW. You think because people like Tank/DPS(Utility)/Healing they automatically want WOW? That's the only way I can see you interpreting that.
 
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You're being pretty fucking obtuse, and you should probably spend time reading what people are saying against GW2. Almost everyone here loves the heart system. Almost everyone here loves the combat system (though the combo system they hyped up was incredibly disappointing). Almost everyone here loves the event system (even though it was nothing like what they hyped pre-launch. It's not dynamic at all).

Almost everyone here hates the class system. It's really not a good class system for group PVE combat. There is no structure, it's essentially a utility/dps fight while running around in circles. It hardly ever evokes strategy other than stacking buffs. The majority of people like having a job or a role in combat. In GW2 that isn't defined.

The largest complaint is that Anet seems to be just adding fluff on top of fluff and calling it "content". For the vast majority here, gaming is all about getting more powerful and building your character to be the best. GW2 has none of this. They've mostly added story events and small content bites that have a plot.

I didn't play GW1 but heard a lot about it from others. Pyros had the perfect post about it a few pages ago. GW1 was all about team comps, skill hunting, gear hunting, class combinations and builds etc. Gw2 has none of that. The state of the game is incredibly stale. For games to keep people coming back and having fun, you need a revolving meta or a progression ladder to climb.
What is a revolving meta? Not sure I know what you mean by that. I take "meta" to be game theory about character speccing. It's meta because it's out of game consideration of the way the numbers get crunched in the many and varied specs (spec being gear, traits skills and class in combination). I don't understand the use of the word "revolving" in that context.

GW1's skill hunting/character hunting/team building stuff was pretty cool.

I don't think you need a progression ladder. That is a dynamic that grew out of Dungeons and Dragons (the RPG) and we should have all been warned by the fact that Dungeons and Dragons sort of crapped the bed when all our characters got godlike. Now there is a game that lacked any good endgame. GW2 is trying to avoid infinite progression. The newer concept is horizontal (or lateral) progression. I have yet to see a game handle that very well in the absence of vertical progression.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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Whenever people say, "You just want the game to be like WoW." It sounds like they've played a total of two MMOs, WoW and whatever game they're defending.
 
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Who said the game should be more like WOW. You think because people like Tank/DPS(Utility)/Healing they automatically want WOW? That's the only way I can see you interpreting that.
Gear Treadmill, Slow fat content release, holy trinity - that is wow. If they criticized the graphics as not being stylized enough I think I'd call Blizzard for an attempt to violate copy write.
 
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Whenever people say, "You just want the game to be like WoW." It sounds like they've played a total of two MMOs, WoW and whatever game they're defending.
It seems to me that if the criticisms amount to "I don't like the game systems that are different from WOW and I wish they used more of a WoW like system" then it's much more likely that the criticizer has only played WoW.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
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I feel like you're willfully attempting to not understand what is being said in this conversation as a way to maintain some kind of faith in GW2.

I do think the Yanger is underestimating the event stuff in GW2. I think the events are an incredible idea and one of the best parts of GW2, but they're a first pass if you will. I don't know of any other MMOs that have tried to do what they did and I really wish other MMOs would copy and improve on it. ESO kind of copied them but went the phasing / individualized route and didn't have the ability to execute really well.
GW2 events are the next step up from WAR public quests imo. Before release and for the first few months they would talk about adding more events in all zones so they all repeat less often, which would drastically improve the illusion of a living world. They dropped those plans in favor of the living story approach at some point in late 2012. I still think that was a bad decision, but it is what is.

I feel like Anet are distancing themselves from open world gameplay, partly because players tend to make it hard on them (champ trains, mass zergs at worthwhile event chains or bosses), while Anet probably dreamt of a game where everyone just walks though the world and does the events they come across instead of seeking out the worthwhile ones. We'll see next week how the permanent parts of season 2 are supposed to work, because I dont see how any of it can be open world. And with a supposedly permanently replayable episode, will they have any open world content left in the new design?
 
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GW2 events are the next step up from WAR public quests imo. Before release and for the first few months they would talk about adding more events in all zones so they all repeat less often, which would drastically improve the illusion of a living world. They dropped those plans in favor of the living story approach at some point in late 2012. I still think that was a bad decision, but it is what is.

I feel like Anet are distancing themselves from open world gameplay, partly because players tend to make it hard on them (champ trains, mass zergs at worthwhile event chains or bosses), while Anet probably dreamt of a game where everyone just walks though the world and does the events they come across instead of seeking out the worthwhile ones. We'll see next week how the permanent parts of season 2 are supposed to work, because I dont see how any of it can be open world. And with a supposedly permanently replayable episode, will they have any open world content left in the new design?
That is a great fear of mine as well. Arenanet built this awesome outside world that is amazing to explore and experience. Events fire off around you and people join in to do them with you and it's pretty damn fun.

This new (I agree with you) probably heavily instanced Living World Season 2, will have none of that feeling of exploration and immersion. I do enjoy reading a good short story but it doesn't usually make me feel like I live in the world of the short story.
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
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I don't think you need a progression ladder. That is a dynamic that grew out of Dungeons and Dragons (the RPG) and we should have all been warned by the fact that Dungeons and Dragons sort of crapped the bed when all our characters got godlike. Now there is a game that lacked any good endgame. GW2 is trying to avoid infinite progression. The newer concept is horizontal (or lateral) progression. I have yet to see a game handle that very well in the absence of vertical progression.
The "progression ladder" is the fundamental basis for pretty much every fantasy novel, movie, RPG etc ever written. Your character starts out as a newb and progresses to the point you are the hero who slays the dragon and saves the world.

The challenge MMOs have is a lot of players devote so much time progressing their character that a significant number of them do not want to repeat the same content with an alt. The game has to continue giving them meaningful things to do that gives them a sense of accomplishment. I've lost count of all the MMOs I've played but I do know the #1 reason I quit playing them is because I felt like there was nothing else for me to do and I was at the top of the progression ladder (which has a unique number of steps for each player based on their playstyle).
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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What is a revolving meta? Not sure I know what you mean by that. I take "meta" to be game theory about character speccing. It's meta because it's out of game consideration of the way the numbers get crunched in the many and varied specs (spec being gear, traits skills and class in combination). I don't understand the use of the word "revolving" in that context.

GW1's skill hunting/character hunting/team building stuff was pretty cool.

I don't think you need a progression ladder. That is a dynamic that grew out of Dungeons and Dragons (the RPG) and we should have all been warned by the fact that Dungeons and Dragons sort of crapped the bed when all our characters got godlike. Now there is a game that lacked any good endgame. GW2 is trying to avoid infinite progression. The newer concept is horizontal (or lateral) progression. I have yet to see a game handle that very well in the absence of vertical progression.
Revolving meta is essentially a game that is constant flux which keeps people playing. There is a reason why WOW subs or WOW traffic spikes the most right before an expansion. People come back to check out all the new class specs. The best example of this is League of Legends. Riot is constantly balancing champions and items while adding new champions and remaking old ones. This leads to a game that never gets stale and keeps people interested in the changing environment.

In GW2's verbage, this would mean that the dev team is constantly adding new weapons or adding additional skills in existing weapons that you can then choose from. In addition to this, they would constantly be adding new minor/major traits. They also should be constantly balancing and tweaking existing classes and skills and weapons. Then of course, adding new classes. When I say constantly, it could be anything from ever few months to 6 times a year. Doesn't have to be nonstop.

This essentially creates an every changing environment so that nothing becomes stale and rote. Revolving means that one month because of additions or subtractions in other key areas certain classes can shine (without any changes to themselves) when they were not in favor just a patch ago. An example would be the Warrior got a new skill/buff but some worthless Ranger trait that was never used suddenly became a hard counter to the Warrior and a Ranger went from meh to needed in the space of a day.

--

You don't NEED a progressive dungeon system in a game, but you need a progressive system in something. Players need a way to compare themselves to other players (and for people who don't give a fuck, this would do nothing for them anyway). sPVP needs a tier system for rankings (something said they missed the boat in trying to do SMITE. That's a fucking good idea and it's not to late for that) similar to MOBAs. WvW is a fucking mess. PVE needs some way for players to make them feel like they are progressing their character outside of just achievement whoring. The whole legendary/ascended gear thing is too shallow or too arbitrary to do (also boring).

If you're not going to add a score/gear based system, then to keep people engaged long term, you need to keep adding content and not content that is just retread assets like the Living Story. You need to keep people moving forward in the world with new places to go. The Living Story only does half of that.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Gear Treadmill, Slow fat content release, holy trinity - that is wow. If they criticized the graphics as not being stylized enough I think I'd call Blizzard for an attempt to violate copy write.
Trinity is not asking for WOW, it's a standard video game trope.
People want a Gear Treadmill at the very least, but still it's a standard video game trope. You have a character, you constantly want to make them more powerful. It's in like every video game made ever. That's just not WOW.

Slow fat content releases.. no one is asking for this. You're the only one that brought that up.

It seems to me that if the criticisms amount to "I don't like the game systems that are different from WOW and I wish they used more of a WoW like system" then it's much more likely that the criticizer has only played WoW.
Fuck man. You are the only one who brought up WOW. People want something that involves increasing their characters power over time. Ascended gear and Legendary gear is not the way to do things. They don't care how that happens, they just want something to work towards that involves playing the game and not mindlessly grinding to craft more gear or collect tokens to eventually buy something. They want to actively beat up bad guys and get loot. Diablo is the core of this mechanic in the most shallowest (and most enjoyable) form.

GW2 doesn't have systems. They just have a giant plate of shallow game mechanics. People want more, they want depth, they want tiered structures. Stop saying WOW isn't stupid. This is video game 101 here.
 
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The "progression ladder" is the fundamental basis for pretty much every fantasy novel, movie, RPG etc ever written. Your character starts out as a newb and progresses to the point you are the hero who slays the dragon and saves the world.

The challenge MMOs have is a lot of players devote so much time progressing their character that a significant number of them do not want to repeat the same content with an alt. The game has to continue giving them meaningful things to do that gives them a sense of accomplishment. I've lost count of all the MMOs I've played but I do know the #1 reason I quit playing them is because I felt like there was nothing else for me to do and I was at the top of the progression ladder (which has a unique number of steps for each player based on their playstyle).
In a Novel the hero goes off to live his life offstage. In an MMO the hero logs in the next game and says WTFBBQ I killed this Evil Ogre yesterday... bored...

In theory I like the idea of lateral progression (new skills not greater power on old skills). I like the idea in theory of cosmetic gear as rewards not 5% better stats every 1.5 years as a new expansion is released.

You do not seem to think that "gear treadmill" is an inherent problem. I think it is a pretty tired mechanic to keep people playing and while I would not reject it entirely, I would combine it with lateral progression, new stories and experiences (like new dungeons and new events and new jumping puzzles (for god's sake at least we all agree they are great in GW2)) and cosmetic rewards. I personally think GW2 would be well served with a less steep and maybe less often occurring gear treadmill but I can tell you I am in the minority of players who feel that way and Arenanet has said Ascended is the top gear level for the forseeable future because of the bitchfest they got when they added it.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
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For anyone that played in the Nov'12 patch, I'm hoping that exploring the new zone works similar like the event chain that established the southsun cove outposts and points of interest. Lag and overcrowding aside it was pretty cool to arrive on this basically empty island and then build an outpost, explore it while building a huge bridge and more outposts to find in an attempt to find the source of the Karka. The bad part was that all that happened in the span of an hour. Imagine having some involved events across the span of a few weeks that can actually either lead to founding the first outposts in maguuma or failing that, and the results are either hubs with waypoint and vendors or the ruins of the attempted settlement with some events involving whoever stopped the attempt. Basically Orr, without reflipping every 30 minutes. That's the kind of stuff I expect from the living story, not killing 100 aetherblades in 8 different zones.
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
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My #1 complaint with GW2 is the lack of defined roles in dungeons (tank, healer, DPS, crowd control).

Would it be possible for ANet to easily solve that problem by adding in weapon skill lines available to all classes similar to how TESO did it? If you want to tank you have the 1H +Shield skill line that has taunts and defensive oriented abilities. If you want to heal you equip a Resto staff.

If allowing any class to use those skill lines is not feasible, then giving Resto staff to only the caster classes and giving 1H/S to only the melee classes should work.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,385
277
Revolving meta is essentially a game that is constant flux which keeps people playing. There is a reason why WOW subs or WOW traffic spikes the most right before an expansion. People come back to check out all the new class specs. The best example of this is League of Legends. Riot is constantly balancing champions and items while adding new champions and remaking old ones. This leads to a game that never gets stale and keeps people interested in the changing environment.
Given how GW1 works I was honestly expecting more like this, with situation- or environment-specific skills playing a much larger role and also more skills being added over time, some vital and easy to get and some especially good for their niche and hard to get (speaking about PVE here). In practice they did that like twice during the living story, for some meh healing skills? And like you say something similar for PVP is also useful. The only crux is balancing both, which would be somewhere between hard and impossible, but imo in the worst case they could just say that and limit some skills to PVE or PVP only. PVE would be much more interesting/fun with more potent control abilities, but that's a big no-no if the skills also work in PVP.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
The way GW2 is set up, there are no repercussions to something being OP. And if your balancing cycle is good enough, then it won't be OP for long. MMO dev teams suck at this though. They try to perfect things on internal servers but are typically retarded when it comes to class balance. I have never spoken with a class dev that actually had a fucking clue.
 

Rescorla_sl

shitlord
2,233
0
In a Novel the hero goes off to live his life offstage. In an MMO the hero logs in the next game and says WTFBBQ I killed this Evil Ogre yesterday... bored...

In theory I like the idea of lateral progression (new skills not greater power on old skills). I like the idea in theory of cosmetic gear as rewards not 5% better stats every 1.5 years as a new expansion is released.

You do not seem to think that "gear treadmill" is an inherent problem. I think it is a pretty tired mechanic to keep people playing
Don't try and put words in my mouth. I didn't say anything about a gear treadmill. I just said MMOs need a progression ladder so that you can keep developing your main character to make them more powerful. The gear treadmill is one way to do that but there are others. An account-wide Alternate Achievement system similar to EQ1 is one possibility.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,385
277
In a Novel the hero goes off to live his life offstage. In an MMO the hero logs in the next game and says WTFBBQ I killed this Evil Ogre yesterday... bored...

In theory I like the idea of lateral progression (new skills not greater power on old skills). I like the idea in theory of cosmetic gear as rewards not 5% better stats every 1.5 years as a new expansion is released.

You do not seem to think that "gear treadmill" is an inherent problem. I think it is a pretty tired mechanic to keep people playing and while I would not reject it entirely, I would combine it with lateral progression, new stories and experiences (like new dungeons and new events and new jumping puzzles (for god's sake at least we all agree they are great in GW2)) and cosmetic rewards. I personally think GW2 would be well served with a less steep and maybe less often occurring gear treadmill but I can tell you I am in the minority of players who feel that way and Arenanet has said Ascended is the top gear level for the forseeable future because of the bitchfest they got when they added it.
Ascended gear was the result of Anet being lazy and/or dumb about the availability of exotic gear and very basic player behaviour. Again, they expected people to just frolick through their world doing events, maybe a dungeon a day and eventually get full exotic after half a year, then start on a legendary weapon that takes another year. They were totally blindsided by people being full exotic in october and it showed.

Given that, I think ascended gear is fine and makes a good 'final tier' for the game. You can get some parts reasonably fast even without playing hardcore, a full set takes some time depending on the players dedication, and once you figure in alts or different stat setups it certainly takes enough effort for a game that tries to avoid vertical itemization. With some more planning ahead they could have used different stat combinations over the years to release new armor options without actually raising the stats, but since they had most combinations at launch that ship has sailed.

I'm usually commenting from the point of view that ascended is good as it is and will remain the final tier. In that light I see skills as the best "progression" going forward. In addition to cosmetic stuff and various fluff like instruments, costumes and minis (too bad they didnt do mounts as a strict cosmetic item without getting into the movement speed extremes of other games).