Gun control

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chaos

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Loser Araysar

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Not nearly as much as the NRA, which is squarely in the pockets of the gun manufacturing industry.

I can't even have a rational conversation and discuss reasonable measures that might help limit potential harm, because the NRA has framed the conversation into a strict "you're with us or against us" to ensure that there isn't the tiniest slowdown in gun sales.
The only thing that increases gun sales these days is pro gun control hand wringing and idiotic legislation
 

fanaskin

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Oh shit, a tenuous connection can be drawn in a couple other countries with very different political climates!

I BETTER GO BUY SOME MORE 100 ROUND MAGAZINES
Nah here's a harvard study that makes a direct correlation between the increase in crime and the increase in gun control laws. goes over practically every country and goes as far back as before guns where invented ( theres a huge and direct impact in the decrease of murders when guns where invented, then became cheaper and wider available)
Macro-historical Evidence:
From the Middle Ages to the 20th Century The Middle Ages were a time of notoriously brutal and endemic warfare. They also experienced rates of ordinary murder almost double the highest recorded U.S. murder rate. But Middle Age homicide "cannot be explained in terms of the availability of firearms, which had not yet been invented. The invention provides some test of the mantra. If it is true that more guns equal more murder and fewer guns equal less death, murder should have risen with the invention, increased efficiency, and greater availability of firearms across the population. Yet, using England as an example, murder rates seem to have fallen sharply as guns became progressively more efficient and widely owned during the five centuries after the invention of firearms. During much of this period, because the entire adult male population of England was deemed to constitute a militia, every military age male was required to possess arms for use in militia training and service
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/...useronline.pdf

There's litteraly like 50 solid examples of gun control being in direct correlation with the rise of murder rate.

The crime rate also goes down often dramatically when an area is flooded with guns, like post civil war America.

post civil war
Thus over the immediate post-Civil War years "the country was awash with military pistols" and rifles of the most modern design. The final three decades of the century saw the
introduction and marketing of the "two dollar pistol," which were very cheap handguns manufactured largely out of pot metal. In addition to being sold locally, such "suicide spe-
cials" were marketed nationwide through Montgomery Ward catalogs starting in 1872 and by Sears from 1886. They were priced as low as $1.69, and were marketed under names like the "Little Giant" and the "Tramp's Terror."Thus, the period between 1866 and 1900 saw a vast diffusion of commercial and military surplus revolvers and lever
action rifles throughout the American populace. Yet, far from rising, homicide seems to have fallen off sharply during these thirty years.
demographics that are contrary to any gun control advocates "logic"
A. Demographic Patterns

Contrary to what should be the case if more guns equal more death, there are no "consistent indications of a link between gun ownership and criminal or violent behavior by owners;" infact, gun ownership is "higher among whites than among blacks, higher among middle-aged people than among young people, higher among married than among unmarried people, higher among richer people than poor"-all "patterns that are
the reverse of the way in which criminal behavior is distributed.These conclusions are reinforced by focusing on patterns of African-American homicide. Per capita, African-American murder rates are much higher than the murder rate for whites. If more guns equal more death, and fewer guns equal less, one might assume gun ownership is higher among African Americans than among whites, but in fact African American gun ownership is markedly lower than white gun ownership.

And it should be noted as well:

Since at least 1965, the false assertion that the United States has the industrialized world's highest murder rate has been an artifact of politically motivated Soviet minimization designed to hide the true homicide rates.Since well before that date, the Soviet Union possessed extremely stringent gun controls that were effectuated by a police state apparatus providing stringent enforcement. So successful was that regime that few Russian civilians now have firearms and very few murders involve them.Yet, manifest success in keeping its people disarmed did not prevent the Soviet Union from having far and away the highest murder rate in the developed world.
 

fanaskin

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When you say gun control most people think of thugs or gun nuts, what you should think of single woman and elderly people they are the one's that you hurt with gun control laws the most, for them it's the "great equalizer".
 

Big Phoenix

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They may have thought that before, but now that everyone knows that everything about you is stored somewhere, is that really an argument that can be defended in any sensible way?
How exactly does a registry prevent violence? The atf already has a quasi registry with 4437s.
 

Agraza

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A gun registry has basically nothing to do with liberalism. It's pragmatic at best and authoritarian at worst.

Until we are able to shut down all the drug gangs running around south of the border, gun laws aren't going to be that bad. Great Britain and Australia are islands. It's significantly simpler for them to control the influx of weapons than it is for us. Gun confiscation would be an empty gesture with no upside given our continental environment.
 

Eomer

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Until we are able to shut down all the drug gangs running around south of the border, gun laws aren't going to be that bad. Great Britain and Australia are islands. It's significantly simpler for them to control the influx of weapons than it is for us. Gun confiscation would be an empty gesture with no upside given our continental environment.
Yeah, I dunno about that. The US itself is the source for the vast majority of guns in North America, not Mexico or Canada. "The drug gangs running around south of the border" are doing it with guns that were originally manufactured in the US. Not to mention that overall gun crime isn't a huge problem in Canada, despite being directly next door to one of the largest, most well armed countries on the planet. With a very porous border to boot. If we can do it with you gun crazed assholes "south of the border", the US can do it with Mexico next door.
 

Big Phoenix

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Some guns go south of the border,butthat's the fault of the U.S. gov.

Read up on fast and furious.
 

Eomer

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Some guns go south of the border,butthat's the fault of the U.S. gov.

Read up on fast and furious.
Yeah, and that whole operation was done in a misguided attempt to dismantle gun smuggling operations that were already in existence.

http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...olence/241387/

While there are legitimate questions about what percentage of drug cartels' guns came from American federal firearms licensees, over 20,000 firearms found at Mexican crime scenes in 2009 and 2010 were proven to have come from the U.S. This, of course, does not include the unknowable number of U.S.-sourced weapons still in the hands of drug cartels.
Derp.
 

fanaskin

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So how come the homicide rate in Brazil and South Africa is higher than Canada when their populations own a fraction(less than 1/3rd) of the guns Canadians do? because murder is a social problem not a problem that has to do with a lack of murdering implements.

From that paper

A. Demographic Patterns
Contrary to what should be the case if more guns equal more death, there are no "consistent indications of a link between gun ownership and criminal or violent behavior by owners;" infact, gun ownership is "higher among whites than among blacks, higher among middle-aged people than among young people, higher among married than among unmarried people, higher among richer people than poor"-all "patterns that are the reverse of the way in which criminal behavior is distributed.These conclusions are reinforced by focusing on patterns of African-American homicide. Per capita, African-American murder rates are much higher than the murder rate for whites. If more guns equal more death, and fewer guns equal less, one might assume gun ownership is higher among African Americans than among whites, but in fact African American gun ownership is markedly lower than white gun ownership.

Particularly corrosive to the mantra are the facts as to rural African-Americans gun ownership. Per capita, rural African Americans are much more likely to own firearms than are urban African-Americans. Yet, despite their greater access to guns, the firearm murder rate of young rural black males is a small fraction of the firearm murder rate of young urban black males. These facts are only anomalous in relation to the mantra that more guns equal more death and fewer guns equal less death. In contrast, these facts accord with the earlier point regarding the aberrance of murderers. Whatever their race, ordinary people simply do not murder. Thus preventing law-abiding, responsible African-Americans from owning guns does nothing at all to reduce murderers, because they are not the ones who are doing the killing. The murderers are a small minority of extreme antisocial aberrants who manage to obtain guns whatever the level of gun ownership in the African American community. Indeed, murderers generally fall into a group some criminologists have called "violent predators," sharply differentiating them not only from the overall population but from other criminals as well. Surveys of imprisoned felons indicate that when not imprisoned the ordinary felon averages perhaps 12 crimes per year. In contrast, "violent predators" spend much or most of their time committing crimes, averaging at least 5 assaults, 63 robberies, and 172 burglaries annually. A National Institute of Justice survey of 2,000 felons in 10 state prisons, which focused on gun crime, said of these types of respondents
 

khalid

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Oh shit, a tenuous connection can be drawn in a couple other countries with very different political climates!
It isn't just a tenuous connection. Emulating the "Australian model" of getting registration and then reacting instantly with premade gun confiscation legislation after a crisis is something anti-gun groups like the Brady campaign have talked about. Hell, the lesson that many anti-gun groups have taken from the current situation is that they weren't ready fast enough after the crisis to take advantage of it. I consider opposing gun registration to be partial security against people trying to take advantage of a crisis.

Also, its just straight up laughable to try and say the NRA is responsible for driving up gun sales. Obama and congress talking about gun control is what caused the rush. If Obama had stayed out of the issue like he had in his first term, the huge current rush on arms and ammunition wouldn't be happening.